Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Bad faith and dishonesty
Date: Thu, 29 May 2025 15:53:34 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <101advt$3v9gr$7@dont-email.me>
References: <m99YP.725664$B6tf.610565@fx02.ams4>
 <100uct4$184ak$1@dont-email.me> <100v9ta$1d5lg$7@dont-email.me>
 <1011eai$1urdm$1@dont-email.me> <10121bt$22da5$4@dont-email.me>
 <8bb5266e35845a4d8f2feb618c0c18629c04e4e7@i2pn2.org>
 <1012oj1$278f8$1@dont-email.me>
 <1196d9de2e2aebc1b6d1a85047192e8ea1aeb1f1@i2pn2.org>
 <10137lv$2djeu$1@dont-email.me> <ewIZP.135645$vK4b.131815@fx09.ams4>
 <1017l6l$3cerk$1@dont-email.me> <1017tr1$3drlu$5@dont-email.me>
 <1017ufm$3e54m$6@dont-email.me> <1019vm1$3u8nj$3@dont-email.me>
 <101a65n$3vsp7$1@dont-email.me> <101a86h$3vfam$6@dont-email.me>
 <101a9np$gl7$1@dont-email.me> <101ab0d$10eg$1@dont-email.me>
 <101abbb$gl7$3@dont-email.me> <101aca4$17rj$1@dont-email.me>
 <101actt$3v9gr$6@dont-email.me> <101adcs$17rj$3@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 29 May 2025 21:53:34 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="82208bba9bcc4ec2ca8334d9c40f422e";
	logging-data="4171291"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+jCNdDskQIOVP1rJrlLoY9"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:v9sQV+HSOi4Z72A0kmKYP3utY3Y=
In-Reply-To: <101adcs$17rj$3@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US

On 5/29/2025 3:43 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/29/2025 2:35 PM, dbush wrote:
>> On 5/29/2025 3:24 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/29/2025 2:08 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>> On 29/05/2025 20:02, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/29/2025 1:40 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>>>> On 29/05/2025 19:14, olcott wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>>>> It is a tautology that any input D to termination
>>>>>>> analyzer H that *would never stop running unless aborted*
>>>>>>> DOES SPECIFY NON-TERMINATING BEHAVIOR.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But in making that claim you assume that you correctly know the 
>>>>>> termination behaviour of D.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> All that H needs to know is that D
>>>>> *would never stop running unless aborted*
>>>>
>>>> But it *doesn't* know that.
>>>>
>>>> You forgot to address my substantive point.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not at all. I have been doing this for a very long time.
>>> Even when we go exactly one point at a time it takes people
>>> here several years to begin to address that one point.
>>>
>>> It is a tautology that any input D 
>>
>> i.e. a description of algorithm D
>>
> 
> int sum(int x, int y) { return x + y; }
> 
> *Description*
> The above function does some arithmetic stuff
> 
> *Specification*
> _sum()
> [000021b3] 55             push ebp
> [000021b4] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
> [000021b6] 8b4508         mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [000021b9] 03450c         add eax,[ebp+0c]
> [000021bc] 5d             pop ebp
> [000021bd] c3             ret
> Size in bytes:(0011) [000021bd]
> 

"Description" is a technical term which means a way to encode everything 
about the algorithm in question.

And for algorithm D, that description consists of the fixed code of the 
function D, the fixed code of the function H, and the fixed code of 
everything that H calls down to the OS level.

And nothing in that description can be changed for any reason, 
hypothetical or otherwise.

>>> to simulating termination
>>> analyzer H that *would never stop running unless aborted*
>>
>> i.e. if algorithm D does not halt, or equivalently if UTM(D) does not 
>> halt.
>>
>>> DOES SPECIFY NON-TERMINATING BEHAVIOR.
>>>
>>> If you now agree that the above *is* a tautology then
>>> we can move on to the next point.
>>>
>>>>>> I can easily sketch out a program that your HHH analyser would 
>>>>>> impatiently abort as non-terminating, but which could conceivably 
>>>>>> stop running this year, next year, sometime... or never.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> 
>