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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Bad faith and dishonesty
Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 11:53:00 -0500
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On 5/31/2025 4:13 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2025-05-30 15:24:55 +0000, olcott said:
> 
>> On 5/30/2025 3:42 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>> Op 29.mei.2025 om 18:42 schreef olcott:
>>>> On 5/29/2025 10:49 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>> Op 29.mei.2025 om 17:45 schreef olcott:
>>>>>> On 5/29/2025 3:33 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2025-05-28 19:41:23 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/28/2025 1:54 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Op 28.mei.2025 om 17:02 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/28/2025 3:40 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Op 27.mei.2025 om 16:51 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/27/2025 3:33 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 26.mei.2025 om 21:44 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/26/2025 2:30 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 26.mei.2025 om 21:11 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/26/2025 2:02 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 26.mei.2025 om 20:48 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/26/2025 1:34 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 26.mei.2025 om 18:21 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/26/2025 11:11 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 26.mei.2025 om 17:25 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/26/2025 3:42 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 26.mei.2025 om 04:22 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/2025 9:00 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/05/2025 21:30, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/2025 3:05 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/2025 3:56 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Mike understood this perfectly*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2025 7:36 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --------- Sipser quote -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     If simulating halt decider H correctly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates its input D until H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     correctly determines that its simulated 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> D would never stop running
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     unless aborted then H can abort its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation of D and correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     report that D specifies a non-halting 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sequence of configurations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we can easily interpret that as saying 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly what I said a SHD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does above.  It tells PO that in the tight 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> loop example, H correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates as far as [A], at which point it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly determines that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "its simulated input would never stop 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> running unless aborted", so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it can decide "non-halting".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All correct and natural, and no deliberately
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> false premises to mislead PO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2025 7:36 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://al.howardknight.net/? 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3C1003cu5%242p3g1%241%40dont- email.me%3E
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And you dishonestly left out the part that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> immediately follows where he states that you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are wrong:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *VERFIED FACT*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike Terry Proves ---
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How the requirements that Professor Sipser 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> agreed to are exactly met
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for the record:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1)  I didn't offer any proofs of /anything/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -  I did explain how Sipser's words can be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> naturally interpreted as explaining
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     how a simulating halt decider can operate. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [That is not a proof.]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems like proof to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When-so-ever anyone provides complete and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct reasoning
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> showing how an expression of language is true, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this is a proof.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -  I also explained why that explanation 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *doesn't* apply to your HHH/ DDD pair
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes you did do this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *On 5/14/2025 7:36 PM, Mike Terry wrote*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the simulated input (DD) /does/ stop running if 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far enough, but HHH simply /doesn't/ go far enough
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002192] 55             push ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002193] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002195] 6892210000     push 00002192
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000219a] e833f4ffff     call 000015d2  // call 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000219f] 83c404         add esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [000021a2] 5d             pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [000021a3] c3             ret
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [000021a3]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I use the simpler DDD because everyone here gets
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely confused even by this simple example.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How many recursive emulations does HHH have to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wait before its emulated DDD magically halts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on its own without ever needing to be aborted?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Once you and I work through this one point I may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finally have complete closure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again you make the same mistake by not only 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changing the decider, but also the input.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are discussing the input where DDD calls a HHH 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that aborts after one cycle.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *No we are not. We are discussing this*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *On 5/14/2025 7:36 PM, Mike Terry wrote*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the simulated input (DD) /does/ stop running if 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far enough, but HHH simply /doesn't/ go far enough
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And that is the bug in HHH. It does not go far enough.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No Mike is just wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002192] 55             push ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002193] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002195] 6892210000     push 00002192
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000219a] e833f4ffff     call 000015d2  // call HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000219f] 83c404         add esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [000021a2] 5d             pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [000021a3] c3             ret
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [000021a3]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How many recursive emulations does HHH have to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wait before its emulated DDD magically halts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on its own without ever needing to be aborted?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, *you* are just wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A correct simulation needs only one recursion more 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the simulated HHH. The bug in HHH is, that it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aborts one cycle too early.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The outermost HHH always sees one whole recursive 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than the next inner one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Only if you change the input with the simulator.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Every simulator that tries to simulate itself, fails.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My code proves otherwise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm/blob/master/Halt7.c
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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