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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem
Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 19:18:35 -0500
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On 5/31/2025 5:27 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
> On 31/05/2025 20:26, dbush wrote:
>> On 5/31/2025 2:38 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/31/2025 11:59 AM, dbush wrote:
>>>> On 5/31/2025 12:48 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/31/2025 7:39 AM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/31/2025 2:41 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/30/2025 8:16 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/30/25 11:41 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/30/2025 3:45 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-05-29 18:10:39 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/29/2025 12:34 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 🧠 Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In the classical framework of computation theory (Turing 
>>>>>>>>>>>> machines),
>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation is not equivalent to execution, though they can 
>>>>>>>>>>>> approximate one
>>>>>>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> To the best of my knowledge a simulated input
>>>>>>>>>>> always has the exact same behavior as the directly
>>>>>>>>>>> executed input unless this simulated input calls
>>>>>>>>>>> its own simulator.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The simulation of the behaviour should be equivalent to the real
>>>>>>>>>> behaviour. 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is the same as saying a function with infinite
>>>>>>>>> recursion must have the same behavior as a function
>>>>>>>>> without infinite recursion.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nope. Where does it say that?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>> [00002192] 55             push ebp
>>>>>>> [00002193] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>> [00002195] 6892210000     push 00002192
>>>>>>> [0000219a] e833f4ffff     call 000015d2  // call HHH
>>>>>>> [0000219f] 83c404         add esp,+04
>>>>>>> [000021a2] 5d             pop ebp
>>>>>>> [000021a3] c3             ret
>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [000021a3]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DDD emulated by HHH must be aborted.   // otherwise infinite 
>>>>>>> recursion
>>>>>>> DDD emulated by HHH1 need not be aborted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And the simulation performed by each of these is the same up to 
>>>>>> the point that HHH aborts, as you have admitted on the record:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No moron they are not.
>>>>> HHH performs one whole recursive emulation of DDD
>>>>> than HHH1 ever does BEFORE HHH EVER ABORTS.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nope, if that was true you would have previously identified the 
>>>> divergence but failed to do so.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The code has proved that it is true for three years.
>>
>> False.
>>
>> That you are unable to see that the side by side code traces are 
>> exactly the same up the the point that HHH aborts is not a rebuttal.
> 
> Right.  I've presented such comparisons for PO on multiple occasions, 
> but it's like he looks at the post, and simply can't see what it's 
> saying - like there's a big hole in the post or something.  It brings to 
> mind the Oliver Sacks book "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat".
> 
> Mike.
> 
> 

We cannot do a separate side-by-side execution trace of
HHH(DDD) and HHH1(DDD) because the DDD simulated by HHH1
calls HHH(DDD) as a part of this same simulation.

 From the trace shown below we can see that HHH simulates
DDD one whole execution trace more than HHH1 does.

*It is only after this whole extra recursive emulation*
*divergence that HHH aborts its emulated DDD*

_DDD()
[00002183] 55             push ebp
[00002184] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
[00002186] 6883210000     push 00002183 ; push DDD
[0000218b] e833f4ffff     call 000015c3 ; call HHH
[00002190] 83c404         add esp,+04
[00002193] 5d             pop ebp
[00002194] c3             ret
Size in bytes:(0018) [00002194]

_main()
[000021a3] 55             push ebp
[000021a4] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
[000021a6] 6883210000     push 00002183 ; push DDD
[000021ab] e843f3ffff     call 000014f3 ; call HHH1
[000021b0] 83c404         add esp,+04
[000021b3] 33c0           xor eax,eax
[000021b5] 5d             pop ebp
[000021b6] c3             ret
Size in bytes:(0020) [000021b6]

  machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
  address   address   data      code       language
  ========  ========  ========  ========== =============
[000021a3][0010382d][00000000] 55         push ebp
[000021a4][0010382d][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[000021a6][00103829][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
[000021ab][00103825][000021b0] e843f3ffff call 000014f3 ; call HHH1
New slave_stack at:1038d1

Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:1138d9
[00002183][001138c9][001138cd] 55         push ebp
[00002184][001138c9][001138cd] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[00002186][001138c5][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
[0000218b][001138c1][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
New slave_stack at:14e2f9

Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:15e301
[00002183][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 55         push ebp
[00002184][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[00002186][0015e2ed][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
[0000218b][0015e2e9][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
New slave_stack at:198d21
[00002183][001a8d19][001a8d1d] 55         push ebp
[00002184][001a8d19][001a8d1d] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[00002186][001a8d15][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
[0000218b][001a8d11][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped

[00002190][001138c9][001138cd] 83c404     add esp,+04
[00002193][001138cd][000015a8] 5d         pop ebp
[00002194][001138d1][0003a980] c3         ret
[000021b0][0010382d][00000000] 83c404     add esp,+04
[000021b3][0010382d][00000000] 33c0       xor eax,eax
[000021b5][00103831][00000018] 5d         pop ebp
[000021b6][00103835][00000000] c3         ret
Number of Instructions Executed(352831) == 5266 Pages


-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer