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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2025 10:56:38 -0500
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On 6/2/2025 2:04 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
> Op 02.jun.2025 om 05:32 schreef olcott:
>> On 6/1/2025 8:19 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 6/1/25 5:41 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 6/1/2025 6:30 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2025-05-30 15:41:59 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/30/2025 3:45 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2025-05-29 18:10:39 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/29/2025 12:34 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 🧠 Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In the classical framework of computation theory (Turing 
>>>>>>>>> machines),
>>>>>>>>> simulation is not equivalent to execution, though they can 
>>>>>>>>> approximate one
>>>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To the best of my knowledge a simulated input
>>>>>>>> always has the exact same behavior as the directly
>>>>>>>> executed input unless this simulated input calls
>>>>>>>> its own simulator.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The simulation of the behaviour should be equivalent to the real
>>>>>>> behaviour.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is the same as saying a function with infinite
>>>>>> recursion must have the same behavior as a function
>>>>>> without infinite recursion.
>>>>>
>>>>> A function does not have a behaviour. A function has a value for
>>>>> every argument in its domain.
>>>>>
>>>>> A function is not recursive. A definition of a function can be
>>>>> recursive. There may be another way to define the same function
>>>>> without recursion.
>>>>>
>>>>> A definition of a function may use infinite recursion if it is also
>>>>> defined how that infinite recursion defines a value.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, from the meaning of "simulation" follows that a simulation
>>>>> of a behaviour is (at least in some sense) similar to the real
>>>>> behaviour. Otherwise no simulation has happened.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> void DDD()
>>>> {
>>>>    HHH(DDD);
>>>>    return;
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> The *input* to simulating termination analyzer HHH(DDD)
>>>> specifies recursive simulation that can never reach its
>>>> *simulated "return" instruction final halt state*
>>>>
>>>> *Every rebuttal to this changes the words*
>>>>
>>>
>>> No it doesn't, as HHH is defined to abort and simulation after finite 
>>> time, and thus only does finite simulation.
>>>
>>
>> See right there you changed the words.
>> I said nothing about finite or infinite simulation.
>> You said that I am wrong about something that I didn't even say.
>>
> 
> Of course misleading words must be changed.
> Your words suggest an infinite recursion, because they are followed by 
> the inability to reach the end.

Unlike most people here I do understand that not
possibly reaching a final halt state *is* non-halting behavior.

> This erroneous suggestion can only be explained by adding the verifiable 
> correct words that there is only a finite recursion, so that it is shown 
> that is a failure of HHH when it does not reach the final 'ret'.


-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer