Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Cycling and social policy
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 17:28:33 -0400
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On 6/4/2025 4:12 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 15:32:45 -0400, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> On 6/4/2025 12:39 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 6/4/2025 12:04 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 6/4/2025 10:50 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>> On 6/4/2025 9:40 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/4/2025 3:50 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 23:43:04 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 11:56 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 10:47 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 9:17 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 5:16 AM, zen cycle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/1/2025 10:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/31/2025 8:19 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/31/2025 11:10 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://nypost.com/2025/05/30/opinion/lefties- pro-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> migrant- push-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> back- on- tischs-e-bike-crackdown-is- obscene/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The New York Post trades heavily in sensationalism and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> political
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> divisiveness.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here was the main point in the New York Times article I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> linked on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this issue: "Cyclists who blow through red lights without
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> endangering anyone else can now be forced to appear in court.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drivers who commit the same violation cannot." As I presently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noted here, immigrants, legal or not, were barely mentioned.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Complaints centered around the fact that bikes or ebikes are a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tiny portion of pedestrian risk - motor vehicles are far,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dangerous - but motoring offenses are treated far more lightly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And regarding the incident linked within your NYP article
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regarding a 3-year-old girl getting knocked down when she
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ran into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a protected bike lane: Both the article describing it and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bulk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of reader comments faulted the design of the bike lane, not the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fact that it was an ebike. If there was _any_ mention of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> immigrants, it was minor. (I'm one of those who think that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> facility design is nuts.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Finally, let's please remember that most immigrants are legal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many do take low paying jobs, including things like food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> delivery,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but that does not make them into illegals.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I found the 'discrimination toward illegals' argument
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in a macabre sort of way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, I agree with you that most foreigners here are legally
>>>>>>>>>>>>> present. I am a strong proponent of clarity to distinguish among
>>>>>>>>>>>>> newly naturalized citizens, temporary visa holders, resident
>>>>>>>>>>>>> aliens
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and illegal aliens. Conflating those is dishonest if not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pernicious.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And yet you had no problem conflating a comment from a community
>>>>>>>>>>>> activist who said e-bike legislation was an attempt to
>>>>>>>>>>>> marginalize
>>>>>>>>>>>> the immigrant community with support for illegal immigration.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It was not I.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>    From the report linked above:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "The proof? How they used a budget hearing to assail NYPD
>>>>>>>>>>> Commissioner Jessica Tisch for deciding to issue criminal
>>>>>>>>>>> summonses
>>>>>>>>>>> to law-breaking e-bike riders, instead of mere traffic-court
>>>>>>>>>>> tickets,
>>>>>>>>>>> to discourage reckless road behavior.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Their gripe?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A lot of e-bike riders are delivery drivers for food apps, and
>>>>>>>>>>> a lot
>>>>>>>>>>> of delivery drivers are illegal immigrants — who might get
>>>>>>>>>>> deported
>>>>>>>>>>> if slapped with a criminal summons."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Again, that seems to be _your_ take on the reason for the
>>>>>>>>>> complaints.
>>>>>>>>>> But I don't think that take is justified by the total text of the
>>>>>>>>>> article, nor its points of emphasis. As I read it, the main
>>>>>>>>>> complaint
>>>>>>>>>> was that motorists are obviously a much greater hazard, yet are
>>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>>> treated much more gently than ebike riders. Hell, look at the
>>>>>>>>>> relative
>>>>>>>>>> fatality counts.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Certainly, the vast majority of NYC ebike riders have nothing to do
>>>>>>>>>> with delivering food. Yes, ebikers should be reasonably obedient to
>>>>>>>>>> the laws ("reasonably" since nobody is perfect). But ISTM that
>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>> with the largest negative impact on society should be treated most
>>>>>>>>>> harshly.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You didn't find it odd that New Yorkers would just assume food
>>>>>>>>> delivery
>>>>>>>>> on electric bicycles was by illegal aliens?  I did.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If the deliverers are indeed illegal and working, that's a
>>>>>>>>> violation of
>>>>>>>>> Federal law, as is hiring/paying them on the employer's part. I'm
>>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>>> that happens but to significant numbers of electric bicycle
>>>>>>>>> pilots? I'm
>>>>>>>>> skeptical.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At this point, it's difficult for me to tell what we agree on or
>>>>>>>> disagree on, regarding the NYT and NYP articles.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For (attempted) clarity on my views: ISTM the pedestrians have
>>>>>>>> complained about hazards from ebikes. ISTM others complain that
>>>>>>>> errant
>>>>>>>> motorists are treated more kindly than ebike riders, even though
>>>>>>>> motorists constitute a much greater hazard.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And ISTM that the fundamental issue has next to nothing to do with
>>>>>>>> immigrants, legal or illegal. However, some right wingers have been
>>>>>>>> triggered, as usual, by the very thought of immigrants in America.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another Krygowski strawman.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I doubt many people are "triggered by the very thought of immigrants
>>>>>>> in America" since most of us are descendant of immigrants.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> C'est bon
>>>>>>> Soloman
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We USAians are heartily welcoming of immigrants generally, and
>>>>>> moreso over time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> lol...what load of horseshit...
>>>>>
>>>>>   From July 2024
>>>>> https://news.gallup.com/poll/647123/sharply-americans-curb-
>>>>> immigration.aspx
>>>>> "Significantly more U.S. adults than a year ago, 55% versus 41%,
>>>>> would like to see immigration to the U.S. decreased. This is the
>>>>> first time since 2005 that a majority of Americans have wanted there
>>>>> to be less immigration, and today’s figure is the largest percentage
>>>>> holding that view since a 58% reading in 2001. "
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I believe that number.  Recent excesses and abuse of policy (and
>>>> hundreds of well publicized incidents by criminal illegal aliens) have
>>>> caused real and widespread (and expensive) problems.
>>
>> But still less than the problems - by any measure - caused by birthright
>> citizens.
>>
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