Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: zen cycle <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Cycling and social policy
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 18:47:50 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 255
Message-ID: <101qiem$3ua51$14@dont-email.me>
References: <101f650$178mo$1@dont-email.me> <101g9rj$1hvsg$5@dont-email.me>
 <101hnal$24ksl$2@dont-email.me> <101mi1u$3ua51$3@dont-email.me>
 <101mskd$aqa$3@dont-email.me> <101n5e3$2sls$2@dont-email.me>
 <101n5uh$3t0p$1@dont-email.me> <101ofca$ilu4$1@dont-email.me>
 <2k104k1g30so0fqb1hgfh1jqfmeulbsr3u@4ax.com> <101pic0$rahk$4@dont-email.me>
 <101ppvv$7nm9$3@dont-email.me> <101pqr9$t4q0$1@dont-email.me>
 <101pssl$traa$2@dont-email.me> <101q70t$7nm9$4@dont-email.me>
 <pv914khe8nq1itdkcj97923h3bld6tim4h@4ax.com> <101qdq4$12dtl$2@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2025 00:47:51 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="bfecda0cb0912cca615f4d2687889070";
	logging-data="4139169"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/AWN4Q+q+jVDPeEPTlXXl0xCgsL6GH4jw="
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:5fk7Pw0Xg5ghTZyMEfrYidnDu2o=
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <101qdq4$12dtl$2@dont-email.me>

> On 6/4/2025 4:12 PM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>> On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 15:32:45 -0400, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/4/2025 12:39 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 6/4/2025 12:04 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 6/4/2025 10:50 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/4/2025 9:40 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/4/2025 3:50 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 23:43:04 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 11:56 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 10:47 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 9:17 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 5:16 AM, zen cycle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/1/2025 10:15 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/31/2025 8:19 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/31/2025 11:10 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://nypost.com/2025/05/30/opinion/lefties- pro-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> migrant- push-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> back- on- tischs-e-bike-crackdown-is- obscene/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The New York Post trades heavily in sensationalism and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> political
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> divisiveness.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here was the main point in the New York Times article I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> linked on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this issue: "Cyclists who blow through red lights without
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> endangering anyone else can now be forced to appear in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> court.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drivers who commit the same violation cannot." As I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> presently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noted here, immigrants, legal or not, were barely mentioned.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Complaints centered around the fact that bikes or ebikes 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tiny portion of pedestrian risk - motor vehicles are far,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dangerous - but motoring offenses are treated far more 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lightly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And regarding the incident linked within your NYP article
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regarding a 3-year-old girl getting knocked down when she
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ran into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a protected bike lane: Both the article describing it and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bulk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of reader comments faulted the design of the bike lane, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fact that it was an ebike. If there was _any_ mention of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> immigrants, it was minor. (I'm one of those who think that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> facility design is nuts.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Finally, let's please remember that most immigrants are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> legal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many do take low paying jobs, including things like food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> delivery,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but that does not make them into illegals.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I found the 'discrimination toward illegals' argument
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in a macabre sort of way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, I agree with you that most foreigners here are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> legally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> present. I am a strong proponent of clarity to distinguish 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> among
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> newly naturalized citizens, temporary visa holders, resident
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aliens
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and illegal aliens. Conflating those is dishonest if not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pernicious.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And yet you had no problem conflating a comment from a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>>>>>> activist who said e-bike legislation was an attempt to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> marginalize
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the immigrant community with support for illegal immigration.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It was not I.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>    From the report linked above:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "The proof? How they used a budget hearing to assail NYPD
>>>>>>>>>>>> Commissioner Jessica Tisch for deciding to issue criminal
>>>>>>>>>>>> summonses
>>>>>>>>>>>> to law-breaking e-bike riders, instead of mere traffic-court
>>>>>>>>>>>> tickets,
>>>>>>>>>>>> to discourage reckless road behavior.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Their gripe?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> A lot of e-bike riders are delivery drivers for food apps, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> a lot
>>>>>>>>>>>> of delivery drivers are illegal immigrants — who might get
>>>>>>>>>>>> deported
>>>>>>>>>>>> if slapped with a criminal summons."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Again, that seems to be _your_ take on the reason for the
>>>>>>>>>>> complaints.
>>>>>>>>>>> But I don't think that take is justified by the total text of 
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> article, nor its points of emphasis. As I read it, the main
>>>>>>>>>>> complaint
>>>>>>>>>>> was that motorists are obviously a much greater hazard, yet are
>>>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>>>> treated much more gently than ebike riders. Hell, look at the
>>>>>>>>>>> relative
>>>>>>>>>>> fatality counts.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Certainly, the vast majority of NYC ebike riders have nothing 
>>>>>>>>>>> to do
>>>>>>>>>>> with delivering food. Yes, ebikers should be reasonably 
>>>>>>>>>>> obedient to
>>>>>>>>>>> the laws ("reasonably" since nobody is perfect). But ISTM that
>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>> with the largest negative impact on society should be treated 
>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>> harshly.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You didn't find it odd that New Yorkers would just assume food
>>>>>>>>>> delivery
>>>>>>>>>> on electric bicycles was by illegal aliens?  I did.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If the deliverers are indeed illegal and working, that's a
>>>>>>>>>> violation of
>>>>>>>>>> Federal law, as is hiring/paying them on the employer's part. I'm
>>>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>>>> that happens but to significant numbers of electric bicycle
>>>>>>>>>> pilots? I'm
>>>>>>>>>> skeptical.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At this point, it's difficult for me to tell what we agree on or
>>>>>>>>> disagree on, regarding the NYT and NYP articles.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For (attempted) clarity on my views: ISTM the pedestrians have
>>>>>>>>> complained about hazards from ebikes. ISTM others complain that
>>>>>>>>> errant
>>>>>>>>> motorists are treated more kindly than ebike riders, even though
>>>>>>>>> motorists constitute a much greater hazard.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And ISTM that the fundamental issue has next to nothing to do with
>>>>>>>>> immigrants, legal or illegal. However, some right wingers have 
>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>> triggered, as usual, by the very thought of immigrants in America.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Another Krygowski strawman.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I doubt many people are "triggered by the very thought of 
>>>>>>>> immigrants
>>>>>>>> in America" since most of us are descendant of immigrants.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> C'est bon
>>>>>>>> Soloman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We USAians are heartily welcoming of immigrants generally, and
>>>>>>> moreso over time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> lol...what load of horseshit...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   From July 2024
>>>>>> https://news.gallup.com/poll/647123/sharply-americans-curb-
>>>>>> immigration.aspx
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========