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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD emulated by HHH diverges from DDD emulated by HHH1
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 18:08:02 -0500
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On 6/4/2025 5:46 PM, dbush wrote:
> On 6/4/2025 6:38 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 6/4/2025 3:59 PM, dbush wrote:
>>> On 6/4/2025 4:56 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 6/4/2025 3:43 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>> On 6/4/2025 11:31 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/4/2025 6:32 AM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 11:53 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Counter-factual as anyone that understands
>>>>>>>> the x86 language can clearly see.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>> [00002183] 55             push ebp
>>>>>> [00002184] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>>>>> [00002186] 6883210000     push 00002183 ; push DDD
>>>>>> [0000218b] e833f4ffff     call 000015c3 ; call HHH
>>>>>> [00002190] 83c404         add esp,+04
>>>>>> [00002193] 5d             pop ebp
>>>>>> [00002194] c3             ret
>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002194]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> // First four instructions of DDD emulated by HHH1
>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored 
>>>>>> at:1138d9
>>>>>> [00002183][001138c9][001138cd] 55         push ebp      ; DDD of HHH1
>>>>>> [00002184][001138c9][001138cd] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; DDD of HHH1
>>>>>> [00002186][001138c5][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
>>>>>> [0000218b][001138c1][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
>>>>>> New slave_stack at:14e2f9
>>>>>>
>>>>>> // First four instructions of DDD emulated by emulated HHH
>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored 
>>>>>> at:15e301
>>>>>> [00002183][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 55         push ebp      ; DDD of 
>>>>>> HHH[0]
>>>>>> [00002184][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; DDD of 
>>>>>> HHH[0]
>>>>>> [00002186][0015e2ed][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
>>>>>> [0000218b][0015e2e9][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
>>>>>> New slave_stack at:198d21
>>>>>>
>>>>>> // First four instructions of DDD emulated by emulated emulated HHH
>>>>>> [00002183][001a8d19][001a8d1d] 55         push ebp      ; DDD of 
>>>>>> HHH[1]
>>>>>> [00002184][001a8d19][001a8d1d] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; DDD of 
>>>>>> HHH[1]
>>>>>> [00002186][001a8d15][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
>>>>>> [0000218b][001a8d11][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
>>>>>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> False, as the side-by-side trace show exactly that and as you 
>>>>>>> have admitted on the record *multiple times*:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There isn't enough room to put them side-by-side.
>>>>>> The first paragraph is HHH1 simulating DDD
>>>>>> The second paragraph is HHH simulating DDD
>>>>>> The third paragraph is HHH simulating itself DDD
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no corresponding HHH1 simulating itself
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Irrelevent.  A simulation by definition is not affected by what 
>>>>> happened before the simulation started.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is relevant is that both HHH and HHH1 simulate DDD once, which 
>>>>> includes simulating the code of HHH which in turn simulates DDD, 
>>>>> and both are the same up to the point that HHH aborts, which you 
>>>>> have admitted *multiple times* on the record:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The simulation of DDD by HHH1 and HHH is exactly the same
>>>> until HHH begins emulating itself (HHH1 never does this).
>>>>
>>>
>>> False, as you have *explicitly* admitted:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/4/2025 12:38 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>  > On 6/4/2025 4:20 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>  >>
>>>  >> That did not answer the question: WHAT INSTRUCTION, correctly 
>>> simulated did that?
>>>  >
>>>  > When HHH1(DDD) simulates DDD it never simulates itself.
>>>  > When HHH(DDD) simulates DDD then simulates itself simulating
>>>  > DDD the first instruction that this simulated HHH simulates
>>>  > diverges from the simulation that HHH1 did.
>>>  >
>>>  >> You cannot point to any instruction interpreted differently by 
>>> the two simulators.
>>>  >
>>>  > There are no instructions interpreted differently.
>>>
>>
>> HHH1(DDD) emulates DDD once and never emulates itself.
>> HHH(DDD) emulates DDD then emulates itself emulating DDD.
>>
>> the first instruction of DDD emulated by HHH emulating itself
>> is one more instruction of DDD than HHH1 ever emulates.
>>
>> the 2nd instruction of DDD emulated by HHH emulating itself
>> is now two more instructions of DDD than HHH1 ever emulates.
>>
>> the 3nd instruction of DDD emulated by HHH emulating itself
>> is now three more instructions of DDD than HHH1 ever emulates.
>>
> 
> 
> "itself" is irrelevant.  A simulation by definition is not affected by 
> what happened before the simulation started, and you in fact admitted as 
> much above, so there is no deviation.
> 

That you are unable to count to three is not my problem.

-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer