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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Re: DDD emulated by HHH diverges from DDD emulated by HHH1
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 19:57:03 -0500
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On 6/4/2025 5:38 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 6/4/2025 3:59 PM, dbush wrote:
>> On 6/4/2025 4:56 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 6/4/2025 3:43 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>> On 6/4/2025 11:31 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 6/4/2025 6:32 AM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 11:53 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Counter-factual as anyone that understands
>>>>>>> the x86 language can clearly see.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>> [00002183] 55             push ebp
>>>>> [00002184] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>>>> [00002186] 6883210000     push 00002183 ; push DDD
>>>>> [0000218b] e833f4ffff     call 000015c3 ; call HHH
>>>>> [00002190] 83c404         add esp,+04
>>>>> [00002193] 5d             pop ebp
>>>>> [00002194] c3             ret
>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002194]
>>>>>
>>>>> // First four instructions of DDD emulated by HHH1
>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:1138d9
>>>>> [00002183][001138c9][001138cd] 55         push ebp      ; DDD of HHH1
>>>>> [00002184][001138c9][001138cd] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; DDD of HHH1
>>>>> [00002186][001138c5][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
>>>>> [0000218b][001138c1][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
>>>>> New slave_stack at:14e2f9
>>>>>
>>>>> // First four instructions of DDD emulated by emulated HHH
>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:15e301
>>>>> [00002183][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 55         push ebp      ; DDD of 
>>>>> HHH[0]
>>>>> [00002184][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; DDD of 
>>>>> HHH[0]
>>>>> [00002186][0015e2ed][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
>>>>> [0000218b][0015e2e9][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
>>>>> New slave_stack at:198d21
>>>>>
>>>>> // First four instructions of DDD emulated by emulated emulated HHH
>>>>> [00002183][001a8d19][001a8d1d] 55         push ebp      ; DDD of 
>>>>> HHH[1]
>>>>> [00002184][001a8d19][001a8d1d] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; DDD of 
>>>>> HHH[1]
>>>>> [00002186][001a8d15][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
>>>>> [0000218b][001a8d11][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
>>>>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> False, as the side-by-side trace show exactly that and as you have 
>>>>>> admitted on the record *multiple times*:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There isn't enough room to put them side-by-side.
>>>>> The first paragraph is HHH1 simulating DDD
>>>>> The second paragraph is HHH simulating DDD
>>>>> The third paragraph is HHH simulating itself DDD
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no corresponding HHH1 simulating itself
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Irrelevent.  A simulation by definition is not affected by what 
>>>> happened before the simulation started.
>>>>
>>>> What is relevant is that both HHH and HHH1 simulate DDD once, which 
>>>> includes simulating the code of HHH which in turn simulates DDD, and 
>>>> both are the same up to the point that HHH aborts, which you have 
>>>> admitted *multiple times* on the record:
>>>>
>>>
>>> The simulation of DDD by HHH1 and HHH is exactly the same
>>> until HHH begins emulating itself (HHH1 never does this).
>>>
>>
>> False, as you have *explicitly* admitted:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/4/2025 12:38 PM, olcott wrote:
>>  > On 6/4/2025 4:20 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >> That did not answer the question: WHAT INSTRUCTION, correctly 
>> simulated did that?
>>  >
>>  > When HHH1(DDD) simulates DDD it never simulates itself.
>>  > When HHH(DDD) simulates DDD then simulates itself simulating
>>  > DDD the first instruction that this simulated HHH simulates
>>  > diverges from the simulation that HHH1 did.
>>  >
>>  >> You cannot point to any instruction interpreted differently by the 
>> two simulators.
>>  >
>>  > There are no instructions interpreted differently.
>>
> 
> HHH1(DDD) emulates DDD once and never emulates itself.
> HHH(DDD) emulates DDD then emulates itself emulating DDD.
> 
> the first instruction of DDD emulated by HHH emulating itself
> is one more instruction of DDD than HHH1 ever emulates.
> 
> the 2nd instruction of DDD emulated by HHH emulating itself
> is now two more instructions of DDD than HHH1 ever emulates.
> 
> the 3nd instruction of DDD emulated by HHH emulating itself
> is now three more instructions of DDD than HHH1 ever emulates.
> 

DDD emulated by HHH1              DDD emulated by HHH
[00002183] push ebp               [00002183] push ebp
[00002184] mov ebp,esp            [00002184] mov ebp,esp
[00002186] push 00002183 ; DDD    [00002186] push 00002183 ; DDD
[0000218b] call 000015c3 ; HHH    [0000218b] call 000015c3 ; HHH

DDD emulated by HHH emulating itself
[00002183] push ebp      ;
[00002184] mov ebp,esp   ;
[00002186] push 00002183 ; DDD
[0000218b] call 000015c3 ; HHH

-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer