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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD emulated by HHH diverges from DDD emulated by HHH1
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 21:40:21 -0500
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On 6/4/2025 8:53 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 6/4/25 11:40 AM, olcott wrote:
>> On 6/4/2025 6:22 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 6/3/25 10:51 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 6/3/2025 9:42 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>> On 6/3/2025 10:29 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 8:57 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 5:14 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 3:48 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Am Tue, 03 Jun 2025 14:47:23 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 3:28 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Op 02.jun.2025 om 17:52 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD correctly emulated by HHH diverges from DDD correctly 
>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated by
>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH1 as soon as HHH begins emulating itself emulating DDD, 
>>>>>>>>>>>> marked
>>>>>>>>>>>> below.
>>>>>>>>>>>> *HHH1 never emulates itself emulating DDD*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *This is the beginning of the divergence of the behavior*
>>>>>>>>>>>> *of DDD emulated by HHH versus DDD emulated by HHH1*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Misleading words when you change the meaning of diverging.
>>>>>>>>>>> Mike showed the traces side by side. Even after many 
>>>>>>>>>>> requests, you
>>>>>>>>>>> still cannot show the first instruction that is interpreted 
>>>>>>>>>>> differently
>>>>>>>>>>> by HHH and HHH1. The only difference is that HHH gives up the
>>>>>>>>>>> simulation too early.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As soon as HHH begins emulating itself and HHH1 NEVER begins 
>>>>>>>>>> emulating
>>>>>>>>>> itself THIS IS THE DIVERGENCE.
>>>>>>>>> Yes, that is exactly the point where HHH aborts. 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Both the divergence and the abort are shown below.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>> [00002183] 55             push ebp
>>>>>>>> [00002184] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>> [00002186] 6883210000     push 00002183 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>> [0000218b] e833f4ffff     call 000015c3 ; call HHH
>>>>>>>> [00002190] 83c404         add esp,+04
>>>>>>>> [00002193] 5d             pop ebp
>>>>>>>> [00002194] c3             ret
>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002194]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _main()
>>>>>>>> [000021a3] 55             push ebp
>>>>>>>> [000021a4] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>> [000021a6] 6883210000     push 00002183 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>> [000021ab] e843f3ffff     call 000014f3 ; call HHH1
>>>>>>>> [000021b0] 83c404         add esp,+04
>>>>>>>> [000021b3] 33c0           xor eax,eax
>>>>>>>> [000021b5] 5d             pop ebp
>>>>>>>> [000021b6] c3             ret
>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0020) [000021b6]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>>>>>>>>   address   address   data      code       language
>>>>>>>>   ========  ========  ========  ========== =============
>>>>>>>> [000021a3][0010382d][00000000] 55         push ebp      ; main()
>>>>>>>> [000021a4][0010382d][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; main()
>>>>>>>> [000021a6][00103829][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>> [000021ab][00103825][000021b0] e843f3ffff call 000014f3 ; call HHH1
>>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:1038d1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored 
>>>>>>>> at:1138d9
>>>>>>>> [00002183][001138c9][001138cd] 55         push ebp      ; DDD of 
>>>>>>>> HHH1
>>>>>>>> [00002184][001138c9][001138cd] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; DDD of 
>>>>>>>> HHH1
>>>>>>>> [00002186][001138c5][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>> [0000218b][001138c1][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
>>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:14e2f9
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored 
>>>>>>>> at:15e301
>>>>>>>> [00002183][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 55         push ebp      ; DDD of 
>>>>>>>> HHH[0]
>>>>>>>> [00002184][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; DDD of 
>>>>>>>> HHH[0]
>>>>>>>> [00002186][0015e2ed][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>> [0000218b][0015e2e9][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
>>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:198d21
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> THIS IS WHERE THE DIVERGENCE OF DDD EMULATED BY HHH
>>>>>>>> AND DDD EMULATED BY HHH1 BEGINS
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So how exactly do HHH and HHH1 emulate the first instruction of 
>>>>>>> HHH differently?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The question is incorrect.
>>>>>> HHH emulates DDD two times and HHH1 emulates DDD one time
>>>>>> the whole second time is the divergence.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no divergence if the instructions are emulated exactly the 
>>>>> same in both cases. 
>>>>
>>>> HHH1(DDD) emulates DDD exactly one time.
>>>> HHH(DDD) emulates DDD exactly two times.
>>>>
>>>> The whole second time that HHH emulates DDD is
>>>> divergence.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You mean it INCORRECT imagining of what it THINKS HHH should do 
>>> because it thinks that HHH is just a correct simulator?
>>>
>>
>> The question is:
>> At exactly what point does DDD simulated by HHH
>> diverge from DDD simulated by HHH1?
> 
> Right, which x86 instruction, correctly simulated, had differing results.
> 
>>
>> As soon as HHH simulates itself simulating DDD it is
>> simulating DDD one more time than DDD simulated by
>> HHH1 ever gets to.
>>
> 
> In other words, your idea of "simulation per the language of the x86 
> language" isn't actually based on actually emulating the actual x86 
> instrucitons, but instead presuming that HHH is just a pure simulator 
> that never aborts, and then you let it abort.
> 

Counter-factual.
HHH simulates DDD exactly twice
HHH1 simulates DDD exactly once

Dennis Bush does not seem to understand that 1 != 2

-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer