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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD emulated by HHH diverges from DDD emulated by HHH1
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2025 11:57:56 -0500
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On 6/5/2025 6:42 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 6/4/25 10:40 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 6/4/2025 8:53 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 6/4/25 11:40 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 6/4/2025 6:22 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 6/3/25 10:51 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 9:42 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 10:29 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 8:57 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 5:14 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 3:48 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Am Tue, 03 Jun 2025 14:47:23 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 3:28 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 02.jun.2025 om 17:52 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD correctly emulated by HHH diverges from DDD correctly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH1 as soon as HHH begins emulating itself emulating DDD, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> marked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> below.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *HHH1 never emulates itself emulating DDD*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *This is the beginning of the divergence of the behavior*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *of DDD emulated by HHH versus DDD emulated by HHH1*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Misleading words when you change the meaning of diverging.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike showed the traces side by side. Even after many 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> requests, you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> still cannot show the first instruction that is interpreted 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> differently
>>>>>>>>>>>>> by HHH and HHH1. The only difference is that HHH gives up the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation too early.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As soon as HHH begins emulating itself and HHH1 NEVER begins 
>>>>>>>>>>>> emulating
>>>>>>>>>>>> itself THIS IS THE DIVERGENCE.
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, that is exactly the point where HHH aborts. 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Both the divergence and the abort are shown below.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] 55             push ebp
>>>>>>>>>> [00002184] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>>>> [00002186] 6883210000     push 00002183 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>> [0000218b] e833f4ffff     call 000015c3 ; call HHH
>>>>>>>>>> [00002190] 83c404         add esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>> [00002193] 5d             pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>> [00002194] c3             ret
>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002194]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _main()
>>>>>>>>>> [000021a3] 55             push ebp
>>>>>>>>>> [000021a4] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>>>> [000021a6] 6883210000     push 00002183 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>> [000021ab] e843f3ffff     call 000014f3 ; call HHH1
>>>>>>>>>> [000021b0] 83c404         add esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>> [000021b3] 33c0           xor eax,eax
>>>>>>>>>> [000021b5] 5d             pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>> [000021b6] c3             ret
>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0020) [000021b6]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>>>>>>>>>>   address   address   data      code       language
>>>>>>>>>>   ========  ========  ========  ========== =============
>>>>>>>>>> [000021a3][0010382d][00000000] 55         push ebp      ; main()
>>>>>>>>>> [000021a4][0010382d][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; main()
>>>>>>>>>> [000021a6][00103829][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push 
>>>>>>>>>> DDD
>>>>>>>>>> [000021ab][00103825][000021b0] e843f3ffff call 000014f3 ; call 
>>>>>>>>>> HHH1
>>>>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:1038d1
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored 
>>>>>>>>>> at:1138d9
>>>>>>>>>> [00002183][001138c9][001138cd] 55         push ebp      ; DDD 
>>>>>>>>>> of HHH1
>>>>>>>>>> [00002184][001138c9][001138cd] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; DDD 
>>>>>>>>>> of HHH1
>>>>>>>>>> [00002186][001138c5][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push 
>>>>>>>>>> DDD
>>>>>>>>>> [0000218b][001138c1][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call 
>>>>>>>>>> HHH
>>>>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:14e2f9
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored 
>>>>>>>>>> at:15e301
>>>>>>>>>> [00002183][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 55         push ebp      ; DDD 
>>>>>>>>>> of HHH[0]
>>>>>>>>>> [00002184][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; DDD 
>>>>>>>>>> of HHH[0]
>>>>>>>>>> [00002186][0015e2ed][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push 
>>>>>>>>>> DDD
>>>>>>>>>> [0000218b][0015e2e9][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call 
>>>>>>>>>> HHH
>>>>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:198d21
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> THIS IS WHERE THE DIVERGENCE OF DDD EMULATED BY HHH
>>>>>>>>>> AND DDD EMULATED BY HHH1 BEGINS
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So how exactly do HHH and HHH1 emulate the first instruction of 
>>>>>>>>> HHH differently?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The question is incorrect.
>>>>>>>> HHH emulates DDD two times and HHH1 emulates DDD one time
>>>>>>>> the whole second time is the divergence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is no divergence if the instructions are emulated exactly 
>>>>>>> the same in both cases. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HHH1(DDD) emulates DDD exactly one time.
>>>>>> HHH(DDD) emulates DDD exactly two times.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The whole second time that HHH emulates DDD is
>>>>>> divergence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You mean it INCORRECT imagining of what it THINKS HHH should do 
>>>>> because it thinks that HHH is just a correct simulator?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The question is:
>>>> At exactly what point does DDD simulated by HHH
>>>> diverge from DDD simulated by HHH1?
>>>
>>> Right, which x86 instruction, correctly simulated, had differing 
>>> results.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> As soon as HHH simulates itself simulating DDD it is
>>>> simulating DDD one more time than DDD simulated by
>>>> HHH1 ever gets to.
>>>>
>>>
>>> In other words, your idea of "simulation per the language of the x86 
>>> language" isn't actually based on actually emulating the actual x86 
>>> instrucitons, but instead presuming that HHH is just a pure simulator 
>>> that never aborts, and then you let it abort.
>>>
>>
>> Counter-factual.
>> HHH simulates DDD exactly twice
>> HHH1 simulates DDD exactly once
>>
>> Dennis Bush does not seem to understand that 1 != 2
>>
> 
> No, your traces show exactly the opposite.
> 
> HHH simuated DDD once, 

*HHH is simulated THREE TIMES*  Why lie ?
(Search for machine address 000021a3)

_DDD()
*00002183* 55             push ebp
[00002184] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
[00002186] 6883210000     push 00002183 ; push DDD
[0000218b] e833f4ffff     call 000015c3 ; call HHH
[00002190] 83c404         add esp,+04
[00002193] 5d             pop ebp
[00002194] c3             ret
Size in bytes:(0018) [00002194]

_main()
[000021a3] 55             push ebp
[000021a4] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
[000021a6] 6883210000     push 00002183 ; push DDD
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========