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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
Subject: Re: DDD emulated by HHH diverges from DDD emulated by HHH1--- BEST
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Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2025 11:53:02 -0500
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In-Reply-To: <101v3lk$2c3ca$1@dont-email.me>

On 6/6/2025 11:06 AM, Mike Terry wrote:
> On 05/06/2025 05:27, olcott wrote:
>> On 6/4/2025 10:55 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>> On 05/06/2025 02:39, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 6/4/2025 8:28 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>> On 6/4/2025 9:08 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/4/2025 7:41 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/4/2025 8:32 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Show me this side-by-side trace and I will point out your mistake.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> See below, which shows that the simulations performed by HHH and 
>>>>>>> HHH1 are identical up to the point that HHH aborts, as you have 
>>>>>>> agreed on the record.
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> False.  The correct trace is the one I posted, which shows all 
>>>>> levels of emulation performed by HHH and HHH1.  See the corrections 
>>>>> I made to your comments
>>>>
>>>> It is not supposed to do that.
>>>
>>> Are you saying it's not supposed to include /nested/ emulations?  It 
>>> is perfectly sensible to include nested emulations.
>>>
>>
>> It can include nested simulations yet nested
>> simulations are in a hierarchy thus not side-by-side.
>> A side-by-side analysis must be side-by-side.
>>
> 
> Hierarchies can be compared side-by-side.  In the case of these traces, 
> the hierarchy can be "flattened" into one stream of nested simulations.  
> You do this yourself every time you present one of your nested 
> simulation traces.  Such a trace should include a simulation depth (or 
> equivalent) for each entry.
> 
> Two nested simulation traces can easily be presented side-by-side for 
> comparisson.  You are just trying to divert attention from your own 
> failings to properly understand the requirements.
> 

*From the execution trace of HHH1(DDD) shown below*
DDD emulated by HHH1              DDD emulated by HHH
[00002183] push ebp               [00002183] push ebp
[00002184] mov ebp,esp            [00002184] mov ebp,esp
[00002186] push 00002183 ; DDD    [00002186] push 00002183 ; DDD
[0000218b] call 000015c3 ; HHH    [0000218b] call 000015c3 ; HHH
*HHH1 emulates DDD once then HHH emulates DDD once, these match*

*Then HHH emulates itself emulating DDD, HHH1 NEVER DOES THIS*
*Then HHH emulates itself emulating DDD, HHH1 NEVER DOES THIS*
*Then HHH emulates itself emulating DDD, HHH1 NEVER DOES THIS*
*Then HHH emulates itself emulating DDD, HHH1 NEVER DOES THIS*

DDD emulated by HHH emulating itself
[00002183] push ebp      ;
[00002184] mov ebp,esp   ;
[00002186] push 00002183 ; DDD
[0000218b] call 000015c3 ; HHH
=================================================================

_DDD()
[00002183] 55             push ebp
[00002184] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
[00002186] 6883210000     push 00002183 ; push DDD
[0000218b] e833f4ffff     call 000015c3 ; call HHH
[00002190] 83c404         add esp,+04
[00002193] 5d             pop ebp
[00002194] c3             ret
Size in bytes:(0018) [00002194]

_main()
[000021a3] 55             push ebp
[000021a4] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
[000021a6] 6883210000     push 00002183 ; push DDD
[000021ab] e843f3ffff     call 000014f3 ; call HHH1
[000021b0] 83c404         add esp,+04
[000021b3] 33c0           xor eax,eax
[000021b5] 5d             pop ebp
[000021b6] c3             ret
Size in bytes:(0020) [000021b6]

  machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
  address   address   data      code       language
  ========  ========  ========  ========== =============
<main is executed>
[000021a3][0010382d][00000000] 55         push ebp      ; main()
[000021a4][0010382d][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; main()
[000021a6][00103829][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
[000021ab][00103825][000021b0] e843f3ffff call 000014f3 ; call HHH1
</main is executed>

New slave_stack at:1038d1
Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:1138d9

<DDD emulated by HHH1>
[00002183][001138c9][001138cd] 55         push ebp      ; DDD of HHH1
[00002184][001138c9][001138cd] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; DDD of HHH1
[00002186][001138c5][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
[0000218b][001138c1][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
</DDD emulated by HHH1>

New slave_stack at:14e2f9
Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:15e301

<DDD emulated by HHH>
[00002183][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 55         push ebp      ; DDD of HHH[0]
[00002184][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; DDD of HHH[0]
[00002186][0015e2ed][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
[0000218b][0015e2e9][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
<DDD emulated by HHH>

New slave_stack at:198d21  DDD emulated by HHH
*This is the beginning of the divergence of the behavior*
*HHH is emulating itself emulating DDD, HHH1 never does that*

<DDD emulated by HHH emulating itself>
[00002183][001a8d19][001a8d1d] 55         push ebp      ; DDD of HHH[1]
[00002184][001a8d19][001a8d1d] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; DDD of HHH[1]
[00002186][001a8d15][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
[0000218b][001a8d11][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
</DDD emulated by HHH emulating itself>

Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
HHH returns to caller

<DDD emulated by HHH1>
[00002190][001138c9][001138cd] 83c404     add esp,+04 ; DDD of HHH1
[00002193][001138cd][000015a8] 5d         pop ebp     ; DDD of HHH1
[00002194][001138d1][0003a980] c3         ret         ; DDD of HHH1
</DDD emulated by HHH1>

<main is executed>
[000021b0][0010382d][00000000] 83c404     add esp,+04 ; main()
[000021b3][0010382d][00000000] 33c0       xor eax,eax ; main()
[000021b5][00103831][00000018] 5d         pop ebp     ; main()
[000021b6][00103835][00000000] c3         ret         ; main()
</main is executed>
Number of Instructions Executed(352831) == 5266 Pages


-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer