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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2025 00:38:26 -0500
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On 6/8/2025 12:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2025-06-07 13:51:33 +0000, olcott said:
> 
>> On 6/7/2025 3:13 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2025-06-06 16:17:48 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 6/6/2025 3:57 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2025-06-04 15:59:10 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/4/2025 2:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2025-06-03 20:00:51 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 6/3/2025 12:59 PM, wij wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 2025-06-03 at 16:38 +0100, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 03/06/2025 13:45, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/2/2025 10:58 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Even if presented with /direct observations/ contradicting 
>>>>>>>>>>>> his position, PO can (will) just
>>>>>>>>>>>> invent
>>>>>>>>>>>> new magical thinking that only he is smart enough to 
>>>>>>>>>>>> understand, in order to somehow justify his
>>>>>>>>>>>> busted intuitions.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My favorite is that the directly executed D(D) doesn't halt 
>>>>>>>>>>> even though it looks like it does:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/24/24 19:18, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>  > The directly executed D(D) reaches a final state and exits 
>>>>>>>>>>> normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>  > BECAUSE ANOTHER ASPECT OF THE SAME COMPUTATION HAS BEEN 
>>>>>>>>>>> ABORTED,
>>>>>>>>>>>  > Thus meeting the correct non-halting criteria if any step of
>>>>>>>>>>>  > a computation must be aborted to prevent its infinite 
>>>>>>>>>>> execution
>>>>>>>>>>>  > then this computation DOES NOT HALT (even if it looks like 
>>>>>>>>>>> it does).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Right - magical thinking.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> PO simply cannot clearly think through what's going on, due to 
>>>>>>>>>> the multiple levels involved.  In his
>>>>>>>>>> head they all become a mush of confustions, but the mystery 
>>>>>>>>>> here is why PO does not /realise/ that
>>>>>>>>>> he can't think his way through it?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When I try something that's beyond me, I soon realise I'm not 
>>>>>>>>>> up to it.  Somehow PO tries, gets into
>>>>>>>>>> a total muddle, and concludes "My understanding of this goes 
>>>>>>>>>> beyond that of everybody else, due to
>>>>>>>>>> my powers of unrivalved concentration equalled by almost 
>>>>>>>>>> nobody on the planet, and my ability to
>>>>>>>>>> eliminate extraneous complexity".  How did PO ever start down 
>>>>>>>>>> this path of delusions?  Not that that
>>>>>>>>>> matters one iota... :)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Mike.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> People seem to keep addressing the logic of the implement of 
>>>>>>>>> POOH, but it does not matter how
>>>>>>>>> H or D are implemented, because:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1. POOH is not about the Halting Problem (no logical connection)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Likewise ZFC was not about what is now called naive set theory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To a large extent it is. Both are intended to describe those sets 
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> were tought to be usefult to think about. But the naive set 
>>>>>>> theory failed
>>>>>>> because it is inconsistent. However, ZF excludes some sets that some
>>>>>>> people want to consider, e.g., the universal set, Quine's atom. 
>>>>>>> There is
>>>>>>> no agreement whether do not satisfy the axiom of choice and its 
>>>>>>> various
>>>>>>> consequences should be included or excluded, so both ZF and ZFC 
>>>>>>> are used.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Quine's atom is nonsense.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it is not. It is a set that one can assume to exist or not to 
>>>>> exist.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urelement#Quine_atoms
>>>> It is the same as every person that is their own father.
>>>
>>> No, it is not the same. Being of ones own father is impossible because
>>> of the say the material world works. Imaginary things like sets can be
>>> imagined to work wichever way one wants to imagine, though a consitent
>>> imagination is more useful.
>>
>> If that was true then one could imagine the
>> coherent set of properties of a square circle.
> 
> One can, much like you can imagine the coherent set of properties of
> an impossible decider.
> 

*CAN'T POSSIBLY REACH A FINAL STATE DOES ESTABLISH NOT HALTING*

-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer