Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: The Physics Behind the Spanish Blackout
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 23:49:41 +1000
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On 10/06/2025 8:08 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
> 
>> On 10/06/2025 10:04 am, john larkin wrote:
>>> On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 16:37:28 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 6/9/2025 1:44 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>>>>> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2025-06-09 21:54, Don Y wrote: > OTOH, we're sticking with other
>>>>>> technologies (fossil fuels -- coal -- and > nukes) despite obvious and
>>>>>> yet to be solved problems INHERENT in their > technology.  Adding
>>>>>> "inertia" synthetically to a network is a considerably > more
>>>>>> realistic goal than sorting out how to deal with nuclear waste or >
>>>>>> the consequences of burning carbon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Solar and wind can be made to impose a gigantic inertia with
>>>>>> appropriate electronics. You can fixate the output at 50Hz, locked no
>>>>>> matter what.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only if the surplus energy is available to supply the necessary
>>>>> current.
>>>>
>>>> But that assumes the old usage model where the utility was the "tail"
>>>> wagged by the consumer "dog".
>>>>
>>>> Going forward, expect to see a closer integration of load and supply
>>>> management.  It's just silly to over-provision just to accommodate any
>>>> *possible* demand when technology exists to predict and manage that
>>>> demand.
>>>
>>> Right. People shouldn't just be allowed to cook or do their laundry or
>>> heat their houses whenever they feel like.
>>
>> But they can be offered cheaper rates to do it when the grid is less
>> heavily loaded.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot,_Flat,_and_Crowded
>>
>> spelled it all out back in 2008. Back then Thomas Friedman laid a lot of
>> emphasis on electric cars which are parked 95% of the time and
>> potentially available as a gigantic grid storage battery.
> 
> Are the batteries in those cars designed to only accommodate the 5%
> normal usage?  How would they cope with the constant charging and
> discharging needed to stabilise the grid?

I don't know what the batteries in those car are designed to 
accommodate, and clearly neither do you. It's going to be a lot more 
than 5% of the capacity.

I don't think that they would be used for the short term charging and 
discharging involved in providing short term frequency control for the 
grid - the ambition seems to be have them there to provide emergency 
back-up when there's a substantial disruption.

If we all went over to electric cars the grid would have to provide 
about 30% more electric power than it does now. Granting that cars spend 
95% of their, time parked, the parked cars could offer about 5 times as 
much power as the grid for a couple of hours.

-- 
Bill Sloman, Sydney