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From: AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: What the Constitution, Supreme Court say about 'due process' for
 Trump deportees:
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2025 10:58:52 -0500
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On 6/12/2025 10:45 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Jun 2025 10:41:29 -0400, Catrike Ryder
> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 12 Jun 2025 16:31:24 +0200, Rolf Mantel
>> <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Am 12.06.2025 um 15:53 schrieb Catrike Ryder:
>>>> On Thu, 12 Jun 2025 15:03:23 +0200, Rolf Mantel
>>>> <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Am 12.06.2025 um 10:47 schrieb Catrike Ryder:
>>>>>> On Wed, 11 Jun 2025 19:26:26 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 6/11/2025 5:42 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 6/11/2025 3:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 6/11/2025 9:19 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 6/11/2025 4:27 AM, zen cycle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/10/2025 10:54 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/10/2025 7:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/10/2025 2:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/10/2025 12:41 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/10/2025 12:59 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/10/2025 11:35 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/10/2025 5:59 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 10 Jun 2025 05:09:37 -0400, zen cycle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/9/2025 11:56 AM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One has to wonder why the Democrats are so opposed to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> efforts to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ensure that the only votes cast are from people who are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> qualified to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vote ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They aren't, dumbass. They're against the false trope that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> widespread fraud. They're against the the lies that large
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> numbers of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unqualified individuals cast votes. They're against the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demonization and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assaults on the character of people who honestly worked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their polling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> places with integrity and certified election results to a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> result that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the magatards didn't like.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Elections in the the US are free and fair, with minimal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cases of fraud.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The vast majority of ineligible votes cast are the result of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> administrative errors and mistakes. The remainder are so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> small as to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constitute an insignificant blip in the statistical noise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you want to enact legislation based on lies, you're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing it wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Re elections, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Years ago when I lived in the U.S. I believe that there was a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> limit on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the amount of money that an organization or individual could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> give to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> support a political party running in an election
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Seemed logical... rich folks couldn't dominate the party.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now I read that the president's ex buddy was the largest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contributor -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> millions of dollars.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My memory is fealty? Or they changed the rules?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Effectively, they changed the rules. The Supreme Court decided
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money is speech. See https:// publicintegrity.org/ politics/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the- citizens- united- decision-and-why-it- matters/?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=10586056683
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Under which unions and the like are treated exactly the same as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other groups of associated individuals.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> um...no.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Citizens united allowed corporations to contribute essentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the same manner that labor unions do. CU didn't affect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individual contributions (afair). REcall the famous Romney line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after the decision (paraphrased for political expedience)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'corporations are people too'. That isn't really what he said
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it's more accurate than 'I can see russia from my house'.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In context Mr Romney was correct.  Fictitious persons share many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> obligations, rights and liabilities with humans; They pay taxes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be sued civilly and criminally, they can contract, own and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dispose of property, etc. There are differences; fictitious
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> persons cannot vote.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Fictitious persons" AKA corporations cannot be physically
>>>>>>>>>>>>> punished nor executed. They cannot be drafted and sent to war.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They cannot (practically) be deported, although many "self deport"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to operate from locations that will allow them to evade taxes and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> make even more money. They have no loyalty to the nation they were
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "born" in, they often have no concern for their community nor for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the _real_ persons who live there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They exert excessive influence over American politics and over the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> world at large, to the detriment of countless _real_ persons.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's ludicrous that they are given the "rights" that they enjoy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But then, they've been able to buy very important judges.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Weirdly, they seem to now enjoy approval even from some
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "individualistic" MAGA maniacs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have formed, sold, dissolved, bought, reorganized several
>>>>>>>>>>>> corporations. I suspect that you do not have a good grasp of this
>>>>>>>>>>>> area; of corporate law or regulation or governance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How many of those 'corporations' had to register for the draft?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes there are differences.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Corporations, are fictitious persons (such as NEA/ACT, SEIU, AMA, the
>>>>>>>>>> Boy Scouts and Chase Bank, law firms and real estate LLCs, etc) are
>>>>>>>>>> not citizens and such cannot be executed, cannot vote etc. But the
>>>>>>>>>> officers and/or directors can be jailed, the entity can be fined (and
>>>>>>>>>> to some extent the officers as well).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But back to the above, all those entities enjoy freedom of assembly
>>>>>>>>>> and speech in the collected form of their constituent individuals.
>>>>>>>>>> Oh, and they are taxed, above and beyond the individual liability of
>>>>>>>>>> the members, officers and directors.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Congratulations on having formed corporations. Congratulations on
>>>>>>>>> those entities having paid taxes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But the idea that corporations are practically equivalent to humans is
>>>>>>>>> more nonsensical than the idea that a muscular 230 pound fullback
>>>>>>>>> becomes a girl when he puts on a dress. Both ideas are ludicrous.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And the dress makes no real difference to anyone, yet generates
>>>>>>>>> outrage and hand wringing, especially from the right. While the
>>>>>>>>> "personal speech" in the form of millions of campaign dollars  enables
>>>>>>>>> the purchase of lawmakers and judges, reduces the power of thoughtful
>>>>>>>>> individual voters and produces other severe distortions in our
>>>>>>>>> democracy. Why no outrage from the right?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Answer: Voters on the right have been suckered into thinking this is
>>>>>>>>> somehow good for them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You have an opinion, which is fine.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> SCOTUS however ruled that associations of individuals can express
>>>>>>>> opinion under 1st Amendment protected speech and assembly rights in
>>>>>>>> unison, besides individually. How is this wrong?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's wrong in treating massive monetary contributions as "speech."
>>>>>>> Factually, a corporation is _not_ a person. Factually, money is _not_
>>>>>>> speech. How is this not obvious?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And the specific effect has been to allow multibillion dollar
>>>>>>> corporations to exert tremendous control over candidates and election
>>>>>>> outcomes. That's not what the founding fathers had in mind, AFAICT.
>>>>>>>
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