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Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design Subject: Re: The Physics Behind the Spanish Blackout Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2025 17:55:04 -0700 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 79 Message-ID: <102fstc$30obc$2@dont-email.me> References: <m66c4kdc428f5va3f1lf1hok2d8r7n8027@4ax.com> <1026c1c$fci3$1@dont-email.me> <cnqd4khvpf8bc1m581lt2kquavofaqj6br@4ax.com> <1027bpv$mvq1$1@dont-email.me> <kapjhlx4on.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <1027e64$nfnr$2@dont-email.me> <krrjhlxbmu.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <1rdokas.pew8b1jlata8N%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> <rq9khlxps6.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <1028rpt$14rjn$3@dont-email.me> <ti9lhlxhbv.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <1rdplb0.k2p5xu1t16jy8N%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> <o0olhlxgn8.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <102cuma$1umr0$1@paganini.bofh.team> <1rdt563.34jdntp3ft22N%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> <102e30t$2ish9$1@dont-email.me> <1rdt9mh.yzcwth1j2rwhuN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> <102efp9$2lnkd$1@dont-email.me> <102fqai$305sp$2@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2025 02:55:09 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="953131ae706569211cf091e2d006646b"; logging-data="3170668"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX190L38jL0UtwvZQfSCwQgpD" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:KBeQrXwAz35i1BtxXSmOpH7psqo= Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <102fqai$305sp$2@dont-email.me> On 6/12/2025 5:10 PM, KevinJ93 wrote: > On 6/12/25 5:04 AM, Don Y wrote: >> On 6/12/2025 2:48 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote: >>> Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote: >>> >>>> On 6/12/2025 1:08 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote: >>>>> Waldek Hebisch <antispam@fricas.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> [...] >>>>>> Instantly dropping loads may be possible, but if it is the >>>>>> only short term balancing mechanizm, then effect on loads may >>>>>> be nasty. >>>>> >>>>> That option will become less effective as a greater proportion of the >>>>> supply is generated by renewables. Dropping the load may also drop a >>>>> significant proportion of the supply from local solar and wind sources. >>>> >>>> That's specious reasoning. >>>> >>>> I can contract with the utility to allow some of my BIG loads to be >>>> dropped (on THEIR command) without disconnecting me (and my cogeneration >>>> capabilities) from the network. >>> >>> The key word here is "instantly". To instantly drop thousands of >>> individual loads whilst maintaining their co-sited generation capacity, >>> in a completely reliable way, may be possible, but we are nowhere near >> >> But that is likely because the folks who developed "residential solar" >> likely assumed the grid would be the "800 pound gorilla" that would >> provide stability. That may have been a valid assumption when solar was >> relatively "rare" but is an increasingly unfortunate assumption. > > California residential solar requires that the inverters adhere to what's > referred to as "California Rule 21". The inverters change their output as the > frequency or voltage rises. This is to promote grid stability. So it is not > quite as you say. But, is that the case everywhere and for every (legacy) installation? >>> that at present. Emergency load-shedding consists of switching of big >>> chunks of consumers but that is increasingly liable to switch off >>> generating capacity in an unpredictable way. > > >> Using current/legacy technology. But, there is no reason to force a >> new technology to adopt old strategies and mechanisms. >> >> We didn't assume BEVs would have to be charged using a standard 15A >> branch circuit -- maybe 20A available in an outdoor location (garage). >> This was deemed inappropriate for all but special use cases and >> ALTERNATIVE charging systems were created -- at a significant cost in >> infrastructure. > > There are financial incentives to shift demand for EV charging to times of low > grid utilization. (eg 12AM to 6AM). The grid is mainly limited by peak use, not > overall consumption. Connecting a PV array to the grid automatically changes the client to a ToU tariff. So, if your array can't meet all of your needs (at the granularity of the measuring system), you pay a BIG premium for the power you need to import (even if you've exported enough to cover those needs as you are reimbursed at a lower rate) And, if your array is out of service (e.g., having repairs done or roof maintenance), then any savings the array might have realized quickly evaporate. We looked at the ToU tariff thinking we could easily shift our consumption to leverage any rate reductions. But, most of the cooling load (which is most of the load!) happens during on-peak hours (3P-7P); and the rate is ~50% higher per KWHr during those times. Hard to imagine the cost in comfort to appreciate any real savings! >> Ditto rail lines when the iron horse became viable. Paved roadways >> for horseless carriages. etc. >> >> Someone "got cheap" with solar and decided it didn't need any special >> SYSTEMIC investment beyond the individual cogenerators.