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From: RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: What is legitimate about the ID bait and switch scam at this
 time?
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 09:17:56 -0500
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On 6/18/2025 6:45 PM, Ernest Major wrote:
> On 18/06/2025 11:31, Martin Harran wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Jun 2025 18:54:14 -0500, DB Cates <cates_db@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>> I have been reading this thread with great interest and near zero
>>> understanding. But I enjoy that it illustrates an understanding that I
>>> was late to appreciate. That biology is *really* messy and the stories
>>> we are usually told are greatly simplified and 'prettied up', leaving
>>> out the true nature of what is actually happening.
>>
>> Or maybe MarkE's designer is just a particularly messy one ;)
>>
> 
> On the one hand if one is arguing for organised complexity being 
> evidence of design then the messiness of life in general and 
> biochemistry in particular is a problem. Life doesn't even have the 
> appearance of design (IMHO).
> 
> On the other hand one could argue that the designer was constrained by 
> the laws of chemistry. But an omnipotent and omniscient designer isn't 
> so constrained, so the intelligent design advocate has a problem. They 
> can resort to "mysterious ways" (the intelligent designer's reasons are 
> beyond our understanding), or assert that the intelligent design can do 
> anything it wants.
> 
> On the gripping hand, this is why intelligent design is not science. By 
> refusing to place constraints on the designer intelligent design can 
> explain (explain away) anything, and therefore is not subject to 
> empirical verification/disconfirmation.
> 

The ID perps lied about doing real science.  All they really wanted to 
do was deny the existing science.  They lied about being able to do the 
same science as real scientists because they wanted to fool the rubes 
into supporting their Wedge scam to recreate a theocracy that likely 
never existed in this country.  They even started out by claiming that 
the way to do real science was wrong even though what they were 
advocating as an addition had never resulted in adding anything to our 
existing knowledge of nature.  The inability to test the proposition and 
the 100% failure rate of the god-did-it proposition was the reason that 
it was dropped out of consideration by serious scientists.  We have 
never been able to test the god-did-it notions directly, but every time 
we have figured out what was really going on the god-did-it proposition 
has failed.  Some god does not open up the firmament to let the rain 
fall through like the Bible claims.  Early on a lot of interesting 
discoveries were made by religiously motivated individuals who wanted to 
bring the Bible to life in nature, but they all failed to accomplish 
their goal, but ended up learning something interesting about nature 
once in a while.  It had already been determined before Darwin that the 
earth was not flat, we did not live in a geocentric universe, and it 
looked like there had to be more than one global Noachian flood to 
explain the fossil record and the different biospheres that had 
apparently existed in the past.  The earth had already been estimated to 
be much older than a few thousand years old.  Even Kelvin's objection to 
Darwin's notions placed the earth at around 300 million years old.  All 
Darwin could do was admit that if 300 million years was all life had to 
evolve into the extant lifeforms that is all he had.  It turned out that 
Kelvin was wrong.  MarkE and most of the ID perps understand that the 
earth is around 4.5 billion years old.  Luskin even bragged about doing 
his Geology PhD on rocks over 2 billion years old when life was limited 
to microorganisms.  Luskin is one of the authors of the current teach ID 
scam propaganda claiming that it is still legal to teach ID in the 
public schools, and lies to the rubes about the Big Tent viability of ID 
when he knows that any ID science has to be consistent with an earth 
that is billions of years old, and the vast majority of political 
support for the bait and switch scam comes from young earth 
creationists.  It may be that 100% of the time that the bait and switch 
has gone down it has been on YEC.  Luskin ran the bait and switch on the 
West Virginia creationist rubes the last time in 2024.  YEC seem to be 
the only group of Christians that have fallen for the ID bait and switch 
scam.

Ron Okimoto