Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior
 of their caller
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 09:15:54 -0500
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On 7/7/2025 3:37 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2025-07-07 03:12:30 +0000, olcott said:
> 
>> On 7/6/2025 9:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 7/6/25 4:06 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 7/6/2025 12:00 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 7/6/25 11:19 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> void DDD()
>>>>>> {
>>>>>>    HHH(DDD);
>>>>>>    return;
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *EVERY BOT FIGURES THIS OUT ON ITS OWN*
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it just isn't smart enough to detect that you lied in your 
>>>>> premise.
>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no way that DDD simulated by HHH (according
>>>>>> to the semantics of the C programming language)
>>>>>> can possibly reach its own "return" statement final
>>>>>> halt state.
>>>>>
>>>>> And there is no way for HHH to correctly simulate its input and 
>>>>> return an answer
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You insistence that a non-terminating input be simulated
>>>> until non-existent completion is especially nuts because
>>>> you have been told about this dozens of times.
>>>>
>>>> What the F is wrong with you?
>>>>
>>>
>>> It seems you don't understand those words.
>>>
>>> I don't say that the decider needs to simulate the input to 
>>> completion, but that it needs to be able to actually PROVE that if 
>>> this exact input WAS given to a correct simultor (which won't be 
>>> itself, since it isn't doing the complete simulation) will run for an 
>>> unbounded number of steps.
>>
>> No decider is ever allowed to report on anything
>> besides the actual behavior that its input actually
>> specifies.
> 
> Unless you can quote some respectable author your prohibitions are
> meaningless.
> 

To people that never had any actual understanding and
can only parrot textbooks. They need to see this things
in other textbooks.

It is common knowledge that Turing Machine Halt Deciders
can only take finite string encodings of Turing Machines
as inputs. Thus anything that it not a finite string is
outside of the domain of Turing Machine Halt Deciders.

People have always know the first sentence of that and
never bothered to derive the second sentence from the first.

>> Most people here don't get that because they have no
>> actual depth of understanding. They can only parrot
>> the words of textbooks.
> 
> Do you even understand what the word "allowed" means?
> 
Outside of the domain is a more precise way of saying it.

*From the bottom of page 319 has been adapted to this*
https://www.liarparadox.org/Peter_Linz_HP_317-320.pdf

When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.∞
    ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by Ĥ.embedded_H reaches
    its simulated final halt state of ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩

Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
    ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by Ĥ.embedded_H cannot possibly
    reach its simulated final halt state of ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩

-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer