Path: nntp.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: The Sciences of the Artificial applied to Biology
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2025 03:13:31 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <104sjsr$1unuo$1@dont-email.me>
References: <7out6k96b8cgjr3t5bdnr8g432shen7vqe@4ax.com>
 <901u6k99debtpilfo7tf9u6m7aka4o7ohq@4ax.com>
 <9191c998-9974-b087-4b98-9957aaf6e6aa@electrooptical.net>
 <l2d27kltp9089hcr053ephp2frp52vu13i@4ax.com>
 <104rdt7$1jdkq$1@dont-email.me>
 <104s9cj$8ms$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2025 05:13:32 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="defabae254a42c2088f0c751b094777e";
	logging-data="2056152"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX184KH5hwxlv5gBGQcCWN7Xi"
User-Agent: NewsTap/5.5 (iPhone/iPod Touch)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:rcTO6yEW45biuvWhGuRyPweLR4s=
	sha1:YNPuHLhhk0rnCCgv2IbD8qVI5HY=

Edward Rawde <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> "Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
> news:104rdt7$1jdkq$1@dont-email.me...
>> john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 11 Jul 2025 11:49:03 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 2025-07-10 14:04, john larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 09 Jul 2025 19:38:41 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I forgot to mention that he Sciences of the Artificial digs deep into
>>>>>> why living things (even microscopic ones) have distinct organs and
>>>>>> often components within such organs, versus the organism being a mass
>>>>>> of tissue that somehow does everything.  The driver is efficiency and
>>>>>> simplicity.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This assumes that life has already emerged in some unspecified way,
>>>>>> and goes from there.  This is a different approach than Dawkin's
>>>>>> Blind-Watchmaker arguments.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ref:  "Simon_Herbert_A_The_Sciences_of_the_Artificial_3rd_ed" - The
>>>>>> Architecture of Complexity.  New copies are available from MIT Press.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Even single-cell critters have levels of intelligence. Some people
>>>>> suggest some level of consciousness.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The book sounds cool.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dawkin says he is an atheist above anything else. So he naturally
>>>>> hides from anything that's not primitive neo-Darwinism.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> That's just moving the goal posts.  One gets people nowadays talking
>>>> about different people's gut biomes 'communicating' with each other.  If
>>>> all they mean is that there's some poorly-qnantified mauual influence,
>>>> okay, but I get the impression they often mean more than that.
>>>> 
>>>> I think it's unhelpful to conflate mere mutual influence with
>>>> intelligence---even calling it "information exchange" imports the idea
>>>> of meaning, which requires actual intelligence.
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers
>>>> 
>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>> 
>>> Even single-cell critters (including our own cells) have
>>> extraordinarily complex behavior. And nobody understands how our
>>> brains work.
>>> 
>>> What I'm suggesting is that we not exclude thinking about possible
>>> biological mechanisms for theological reasons.
>>> 
>>> What's your definition of "actual intelligence" ?  I know that most of
>>> what I do (and invent) is done unconsiously.
>>> 
>>> Is an oyster intelligent?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> An intelligent being, properly speaking, is one with a *nous*.
> 
> There's a word I haven't heard used in North America but it's certainly used in the UK.
> 
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
>> Phil Hobbs
>> 
>> -- 
>> Dr Philip C D Hobbs  Principal Consultant  ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
>> Hobbs ElectroOptics  Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 
> 
> 
> 

They use it wrong over there too. ;)

The nous is the mind, but not primarily the discursive reason (dianoia). 

Cheers 

Phil Hobbs 

-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs  Principal Consultant  ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics  Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics