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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: My reviewers think that halt deciders must report on the behavior
 of their caller
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2025 10:17:22 -0500
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In-Reply-To: <104vlsm$2lcg4$1@dont-email.me>

On 7/13/2025 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2025-07-12 14:34:05 +0000, olcott said:
> 
>> On 7/12/2025 3:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2025-07-11 15:22:32 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 7/11/2025 3:36 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2025-07-10 14:26:24 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/10/2025 4:30 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2025-07-09 12:25:59 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 7/9/2025 3:22 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2025-07-08 14:21:47 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 7/8/2025 2:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-07-07 14:15:54 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/7/2025 3:37 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-07-07 03:12:30 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/6/2025 9:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/6/25 4:06 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/6/2025 12:00 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/6/25 11:19 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> void DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    HHH(DDD);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    return;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *EVERY BOT FIGURES THIS OUT ON ITS OWN*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it just isn't smart enough to detect that you lied 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in your premise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no way that DDD simulated by HHH (according
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the semantics of the C programming language)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can possibly reach its own "return" statement final
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halt state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And there is no way for HHH to correctly simulate its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input and return an answer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You insistence that a non-terminating input be simulated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until non-existent completion is especially nuts because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have been told about this dozens of times.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What the F is wrong with you?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems you don't understand those words.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't say that the decider needs to simulate the input 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to completion, but that it needs to be able to actually 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PROVE that if this exact input WAS given to a correct 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simultor (which won't be itself, since it isn't doing the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complete simulation) will run for an unbounded number of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No decider is ever allowed to report on anything
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> besides the actual behavior that its input actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specifies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unless you can quote some respectable author your 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> prohibitions are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaningless.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To people that never had any actual understanding and
>>>>>>>>>>>> can only parrot textbooks. They need to see this things
>>>>>>>>>>>> in other textbooks.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> People who can parrot textbooks know better than people who 
>>>>>>>>>>> cannot.
>>>>>>>>>>> That you can't when you should shows that you can't even parrot
>>>>>>>>>>> textbooks.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I just reverse-engineer what the truth actually is.
>>>>>>>>>> *From the bottom of page 319 has been adapted to this*
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.liarparadox.org/Peter_Linz_HP_317-320.pdf
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.∞
>>>>>>>>>>      ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by Ĥ.embedded_H reaches
>>>>>>>>>>      its simulated final halt state of ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>>>>>>>>>      ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by Ĥ.embedded_H cannot possibly
>>>>>>>>>>      reach its simulated final halt state of ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The above does not make sense. There are one subordinate clause
>>>>>>>>> and two nmain clauses but they are not linked to a sentence.
>>>>>>>>> Whithout a sentence nothing is said.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The reason that I gave you a link to the whole
>>>>>>>> original proof is so that you could see how it
>>>>>>>> makes sense. Maybe the original proof doesn't
>>>>>>>> make sense to you either?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not talking about any proof, I'm talking about your words and
>>>>>>> symbols quored above. What is written in the book does make sense.
>>>>>>> In particular, clauses are meaningfully linked to sentences.
>>>>>>> Perhaps the presentation could be clearer but it is intended for
>>>>>>> students that already know and understand the earlier parts of the
>>>>>>> book.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Linz tried to make two blocks of code into
>>>>>>>> English sentences.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The "blocks of code" are main clauses. They use abrevations 
>>>>>>> because those
>>>>>>> are easier to read than a full natural language sentence. There 
>>>>>>> are other
>>>>>>> clauses so that all clauses together form a sentence. In 
>>>>>>> particuralr, ther
>>>>>>> is an "and" between them. The sentence is not a truth bearer. 
>>>>>>> Instead it
>>>>>>> expresses a desire.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you want to say something you should learn to construct 
>>>>>>> meaningful
>>>>>>> sentences.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That you cannot understand what I say
>>>>>
>>>>> A false calim aobut another persion is a sin even when presented
>>>>> as a subordiante clause.
>>>>
>>>> That you cannot understand that you do not understand
>>>> what I say is not you understanding what I say.
>>>
>>> Nevertheless a false claim about another prestion is a sin.
>>
>> When you prove that you don't understand something and
>> I claim that you don't understand this then my statement
>> is factually correct.
> 
> What I understand or not is not important eonough to lie about or even
> mention.
> 

You have proven do not understand some of these things.
I want you to understand these things. Your false idea
that you do understand these things is preventing your
actual understanding.

q0 WM ⊢* Ĥq0 WM WM ⊢* Ĥ∞,
    if M applied to WM halts, and
q0 WM ⊢* Ĥq0 Wm WM ⊢* Ĥ y1 qn y2,
    if M applied to WM does not halt.

*From the bottom of page 319 has been adapted to this*
https://www.liarparadox.org/Peter_Linz_HP_317-320.pdf

Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.∞
     ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by Ĥ.embedded_H reaches
     its simulated final halt state of ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩, and
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