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From: will.dockery@gmail.com (W.Dockery)
Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: Ginsberg's Rorschach poetry
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2025 08:08:42 +0000
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On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 22:38:13 +0000, HarryLime wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 21:41:21 +0000, Will-Dockery wrote:
>
>>> HarryLime wrote:
>>> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 16:11:37 +0000, Will-Dockery wrote:
>>>
>>>> Victor H. wrote:
>>>> Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 9:27:52 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Allen Ginsberg's poem shows no pedophilia as far as I can tell.
>>>>
>>>> What you claim to see in the poem seems to be from your own imagination,
>>>> Pendragon.
>>>>
>>>> Says the
>>>>
>>>> No, says several legitimate sources, which day that "Please
>>>> Master" was written by Allen Ginsberg for Neal Cassady, a grown man.
>>>>
>>>> HTH and HAND.
>>>>
>>>> Did Pendragon ever admit he was wrong....?
>
>>>> You know Pendragon never admits when he's wrong.
>>>
>>> It doesn't matter if the poem was written for Neal Cassady (a man
>>> roughly 1/3 Ginsberg's age)

^^^ Pendragon's error later corrected ^^^

>> Again, you're wrong about the age of Neal Cassady.
>>
>> He was basically in the same age group as Jack Kerouac and Allen
>> Ginsberg,
>> although I would have to check for the exact age.
>>
>> You're either confused or lying to misrepresent the history.
>
> I'm not talking about the history

So what, I am.

You made an incorrect statement and I corrected you.

> The poem does not mention Neal Cassady's name.  It is addressed to
> someone known only as "Master."  The poem is therefore not about Neal
> Cassady.

Experts and possibly Allen Ginsberg himself have stated the poem is
about Neal Cassady.

I'll find that information and link to it.

> This doesn't mean that the poem wasn't *inspired by* Ginsberg's
> relationship with Cassady.

As experts and possibly Allen Ginsberg himself have stated.

Again, I'll find the information and post a link or two.

> A poem is composed of words.  A proper reading of a poem must confine
> itself solely to the words.  If the poem doesn't mention Neal Cassady,
> then you cannot say that the poem is about Ginsberg's relationship with
> Cassady.

Experts, and possibly even Allow Ginsberg himself, have stated the poem
is about Neal Cassady.

I can look this up again and post links.

> The poem is about a "Master" and IIRC an unidentified speaker.
>
> Approaching the poem on its own terms, I read it as depicting the
> homosexual BDSM relationship between a Dom and a Sub.  I also read it as
> hinting at a relationship between a Master and his Apprentice.  Both
> readings are justified by the poem's text, and both can easily be seen
> to coexist.

Okay, I can go along with that, but repeat the poem is obviously only
based on an Allen Ginsberg fantasy

> Any critical reading of the poem will necessarily pick up on the
> Man-Boy/Master-Apprentice/Sub-Dom implications, and draw the same
> conclusions as myself.

No, that's just your opinion.

> I'm glad to learn that Cassady and Ginsberg were roughly the same age.
> Good for them.

Yes, glad to clear that confusion up.

> The poem, otoh, is still strongly implying a Man-Boy relationship.
>
> --

Either way, there's no real life basis, the poem is Allen Ginsberg's
fantasy.