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From: will.dockery@gmail.com (W.Dockery)
Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: Ginsberg's Rorschach poetry
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2025 20:11:11 +0000
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On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 19:38:26 +0000, HarryLime wrote:

> On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 19:08:51 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 18:22:57 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 16:11:37 +0000, Will-Dockery wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Victor H. wrote:
>>>>> Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 9:27:52 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Allen Ginsberg's poem shows no pedophilia as far as I can tell.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What you claim to see in the poem seems to be from your own imagination,
>>>> Pendragon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Says the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, says several legitimate sources, which day that "Please
>>>> Master" was written by Allen Ginsberg for Neal Cassady, a grown man.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HTH and HAND.
>>>>>
>>>>> Did Pendragon ever admit he was wrong....?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You know Pendragon never admits when he's wrong.
>>>
>>> It doesn't matter if the poem was written for Neal Cassady (a man
>>> roughly 1/3 Ginsberg's age), as nothing in the actual poems specifies
>>> this.
>>
>> Wrong again, Harry.
>>
>> Allen Ginsberg and Neal Cassady were both born in 1926.
>>
>> <Crickets continue as Harry Lime continues to ignore this correction.>
>
> I have already addressed it

Okay, thanks, I missed that post earlier.

I'll read it now.

😏

> I'm not talking about the history, Donkey.  So there's no need to keep
> repeating yourself.
>
> The poem does not mention Neal Cassady's name.  It is addressed to
> someone known only as "Master."  The poem is therefore not about Neal
> Cassady.
>
> This doesn't mean that the poem wasn't *inspired by* Ginsberg's
> relationship with Cassady.
>
> A poem is composed of words.  A proper reading of a poem must confine
> itself solely to the words.  If the poem doesn't mention Neal Cassady,
> then you cannot say that the poem is about Ginsberg's relationship with
> Cassady.
>
> The poem is about a "Master" and IIRC an unidentified speaker.
>
> Approaching the poem on its own terms, I read it as depicting the
> homosexual BDSM relationship between a Dom and a Sub.  I also read it as
> hinting at a relationship between a Master and his Apprentice.  Both
> readings are justified by the poem's text, and both can easily be seen
> to coexist.
>
> Any critical reading of the poem will necessarily pick up on the
> Man-Boy/Master-Apprentice/Sub-Dom implications, and draw the same
> conclusions as myself.
>
> I'm glad to learn that Cassady and Ginsberg were roughly the same age.
> Good for them.
>
> The poem, otoh, is still strongly implying a Man-Boy relationship.
>
> [END QUOTE]
>
> This statement appears in *this* thread.  Had you not been in such a
> tizzy (firing off a half dozen posts in a row), you might have actually
> seen it.
>
> --