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From: hertz778@gmail.com (rhertz)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: ChatGPT: Momentum conservation idealization and the faikire of the
 Noether theorem,
Date: Fri, 9 May 2025 22:45:42 +0000
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Asking Grok: At the beginning of time nor momentum conservation neither
energy conservation didn't exist (cosmological time t=0). How come these
"laws" evolved from nothing

WATCH GROK RETORTING TRYING TO DEFEND CLASSIC PHYSICS BY USING THEORIES
BEYOND QUANTUM PHYSICS, WHICH ARE STILL BEING DEVELOPED (AND FAILING).

GROK, AS WELL OTHER AI ENGINES CAN'T ADDRESS THIS TOPIC WITHOUT MIXING
EVERY THEORY AVAILABLE TO DEFEND THESE TWO BASIC AND LOCAL LAWS.

ENJOY.


****************************************************
Can you tell me what theories about angular momentum conservation
support that such law exist since t=0, at the very start of the
currently accepted Big Bang that created the Universe? For me, at t=0,
the angular momentum of the "primordial atom" didn't evcn existed. How
come this law evolved from nothing, 14 billion years ago.

The question of how angular momentum conservation applies at the very
start of the Big Bang, at t=0t=0, is deeply tied to fundamental physics,
cosmology, and the nature of the early universe. Let’s break it down,
addressing the core of your question: how angular momentum conservation
could exist or emerge from the Big Bang, given the notion that the
"primordial atom" (a historical term for the initial state) might have
had no angular momentum.

1. Angular Momentum Conservation and Its Basis

Angular momentum conservation is a consequence of rotational symmetry in
physical laws, as described by Noether’s theorem. If the laws of physics
are invariant under rotations (isotropic), then angular momentum is
conserved. This principle is fundamental in classical mechanics, quantum
mechanics, and general relativity, and it’s expected to hold in most
physical contexts unless specific conditions break this symmetry.

In the context of the Big Bang, we need to consider:

    Whether the universe at t=0t=0 (or as close to it as our theories
allow) had conditions that allowed for angular momentum conservation.
    How the initial state of the universe, which is often modeled as a
singularity or a highly dense quantum state, relates to this
conservation law.

2. The Big Bang and the Initial State (t=0t=0)

The currently accepted model of the Big Bang, based on general
relativity and cosmology, describes the universe as emerging from an
extremely hot, dense state. At t=0t=0, the classical picture of the Big
Bang involves a singularity—a point of infinite density and temperature
where spacetime curvature becomes infinite. However, this singularity is
not a physical "object" like a primordial atom with well-defined
properties (e.g., spin or angular momentum). Instead, it’s a
mathematical limit where our classical theories (general relativity)
break down.

Key points about the initial state:

    The "primordial atom" is a historical and somewhat misleading term
from early cosmology (e.g., Lemaître’s hypothesis). Modern cosmology
does not describe the universe as a single particle but as a quantum or
relativistic state of spacetime and energy.

    At t=0t=0, the universe is not well-described by classical notions
of angular momentum because spacetime itself is undefined. We need a
quantum theory of gravity (e.g., string theory or loop quantum gravity)
to describe this regime, and such theories are still speculative.

    Immediately after t=0t=0, during the Planck epoch (t<10−43t<10−43
seconds), the universe was governed by quantum gravitational effects,
and classical concepts like angular momentum may not apply directly.

3. Theories Supporting Angular Momentum Conservation from the Early
Universe

Several theoretical frameworks and cosmological models address how
conservation laws, including angular momentum, might apply or emerge in
the early universe:

a. Symmetry in the Early Universe

    Rotational Symmetry and Noether’s Theorem: The conservation of
angular momentum relies on the isotropy of space (no preferred
direction). Observations of the cosmic microwave background (CMB)
suggest the universe is highly isotropic on large scales, supporting the
idea that rotational symmetry was present in the early universe. If the
laws of physics were rotationally invariant from the moment spacetime
emerged, angular momentum conservation would hold as a fundamental
principle.

    Quantum Cosmology: In quantum cosmological models (e.g., loop
quantum cosmology), the universe avoids a true singularity, and the
initial state is described by a quantum wavefunction. These models often
assume fundamental symmetries, including rotational invariance, implying
that angular momentum conservation is built into the fabric of the
universe from the start.

b. Inflation and the Early Universe

    The inflationary epoch (t∼10−36t∼10−36 to 10−3210−32 seconds) is a
cornerstone of modern cosmology. Inflation posits that the universe
underwent rapid exponential expansion, smoothing out any initial
anisotropies or irregularities.

    If the pre-inflationary universe had any net angular momentum,
inflation would dilute it to negligible levels due to the immense
expansion. This is consistent with observations: the universe today
shows no significant net rotation (i.e., no large-scale angular
momentum).

    However, local angular momentum (e.g., in galaxies or stars) could
arise later from quantum fluctuations amplified during inflation, which
conserve angular momentum locally due to the underlying symmetry.

c. Quantum Gravity and the Planck Epoch

    In the Planck epoch (t<10−43t<10−43 seconds), the universe was so
dense that quantum gravity effects dominated. Theories like string
theory or loop quantum gravity speculate that spacetime itself may have
been quantized, and conservation laws might emerge from the symmetries
of the underlying quantum framework.

    For example, in string theory, the fundamental objects (strings)
obey symmetries that include rotational invariance, suggesting that
angular momentum conservation could be a feature of the fundamental laws
even at the earliest moments.

    Some models propose that the universe’s initial state was a quantum
vacuum with zero net angular momentum, but quantum fluctuations could
produce particle pairs or fields with locally conserved angular
momentum.

d. Primordial Black Holes and Spin

    Some speculative models suggest that primordial black holes could
have formed in the early universe. Black holes have angular momentum
(described by their spin parameter), and their formation would obey
conservation laws. If such objects existed, their angular momentum would
be part of the universe’s total budget, conserved from their formation
onward.

    However, at t=0t=0, no such objects are thought to exist, as the
universe was a singular or quantum state.

4. Why Angular Momentum Conservation Seems to "Evolve from Nothing"

Your intuition that the "primordial atom" had no angular momentum is
reasonable, as the initial state at t=0t=0 is not a physical object with
classical properties like spin. Here’s why angular momentum conservation
still holds and appears to "emerge":

    No Net Angular Momentum: The universe as a whole likely has zero net
angular momentum, both at the start and today. This is supported by the
lack of observed large-scale rotation in the CMB or galaxy
distributions. Conservation laws don’t require non-zero angular
momentum; they just require that the total remains constant (e.g., zero
stays zero).

    Local Angular Momentum: Angular momentum in the universe today
(e.g., spinning galaxies, stars, or particles) arises from local
processes, such as gravitational collapse or quantum fluctuations, which
conserve angular momentum locally. These processes trace back to the
post-Big Bang era, not t=0t=0.

    Emergence of Classical Laws: At t=0t=0, classical concepts like
angular momentum may not apply due to the quantum gravitational nature
of the universe. As the universe expanded and cooled, classical
spacetime emerged, and with it, the familiar conservation laws rooted in
symmetries like isotropy. The "evolution" of angular momentum
conservation is thus tied to the emergence of classical physics from a
quantum regime.

5. Challenges and Open Questions

    Singularity and Quantum Gravity: Since general relativity breaks
down at t=0t=0, we lack a definitive theory to describe whether angular
momentum conservation holds in the singular or quantum state. A complete
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