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From: nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: The Golden Ratio
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2024 21:49:09 +0100
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Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off> wrote:

> On Thu, 14 Mar 2024 11:29:51 -0700, the following appeared
> in talk.origins, posted by erik simpson
> <eastside.erik@gmail.com>:
> 
> >On 3/14/24 9:56 AM, Bob Casanova wrote:
> >> On Thu, 14 Mar 2024 13:58:30 +0100, the following appeared
> >> in talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> >> Lodder):
> >> 
> >>> Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 13:39:38 +0100, the following appeared
> >>>> in talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> >>>> Lodder):
> >>>>
> >>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 2024-03-07 22:31:27 +0000, Bob Casanova said:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 7 Mar 2024 17:51:40 GMT, the following appeared in
> >>>>>>> talk.origins, posted by dgb (David)
> >>>>>>> <david@nomail.afraid.org>:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 7 Mar 2024 at 17:41:02 GMT, "J. J. Lodder" <J. J. Lodder> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> dgb <david@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On 7 Mar 2024 at 09:38:23 GMT, "J. J. Lodder" <J. J. Lodder> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Kalkidas <eat@joes.pub> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> dgb (David) <david@nomail.afraid.org> Wrote in message:r
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Does this occur by accident?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden
_ra
> >>> tio
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Or by design?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> It will never be known.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> There is nothing to know there,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Jan
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The thing to know, Jan, is that it hasn't all happened by accident!
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> It hasn't happened at all.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> You are, of course, mistaken.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Wrong. Nothing "happened"; the so-called Golden Ratio, like
> >>>>>>> all mathematical relationships which describe observed
> >>>>>>> phenomena, is a property of physical
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> mathematical
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   reality, no more. And,
> >>>>>>> of course, no less.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You are wasting your breath. Bob is an incurable materialist,
> >>>>> incapable of abstraction and idealisation,
> >>>>>
> >>>> Ummm, I didn't say that there are no parts of math which are
> >>>> abstract, only that all math relationships WHICH DESCRIBE
> >>>> PHYSICAL PHENOMENA are properties of those phenomena.
> >>>
> >>> So the integers are a property of your football scores?
> >>> "No more, and no less", like you say,
> >>>
> >> Overgeneralizations and "football scores" aside...
> >> 
> >> If I understand you, the mathematical relationships which
> >> describe observed physical relationships do *not* describe
> >> those relationships? OK. Maybe the word "properties" is
> >> what's causing you grief? Or maybe it's the phrase "no more
> >> and no less; if that's the case consider it removed,
> >> leaving:
> >> 
> >> "...the so-called Golden Ratio, like all mathematical
> >> relationships which describe observed phenomena, is a
> >> property of physical reality in the sense that it precisely
> >> describes such physical relationship."
> >> 
> >> Better? Clumsy, of course, but since hyperbole and/or
> >> imprecision in general discussion is apparently verboten...
> >
> >The golden ratio a/b == (a+b)/a.  Observed phenomena may approximate
> >that number, but the mathematical interest since antiquity has little to
> >do with that.  In mathematics it appears in all kinds of surprising 
> >contexts.  Wikipedia presents many of them.
> >
> I've seen several of the physical representations; the one I
> remember best (unless I'm misremembering/conflating
> unrelated subjects; it's been many decades) involves the
> chambers in the chambered nautilus. I believe snail shells
> follow the same pattern.

More muddled thinking on your part.
But do look it up. You'll find many pictures of nautilus shells,
and many pictures of logarithmic spirals, but very few
of nautilus shells with logarithmic spirals superposed.
(hint, it is only an approximation)

But tp placate your engineering soul: do look up 'nautilus gears'.
If that doesnt convince you that god is a mathematician 
nothing will,

Jan