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From: nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: The Golden Ratio
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2024 12:45:51 +0100
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Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off> wrote:

> On Sat, 16 Mar 2024 21:49:09 +0100, the following appeared
> in talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> Lodder):
> 
> >Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 14 Mar 2024 11:29:51 -0700, the following appeared
> >> in talk.origins, posted by erik simpson
> >> <eastside.erik@gmail.com>:
> >> 
> >> >On 3/14/24 9:56 AM, Bob Casanova wrote:
> >> >> On Thu, 14 Mar 2024 13:58:30 +0100, the following appeared
> >> >> in talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> >> >> Lodder):
> >> >> 
> >> >>> Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 13:39:38 +0100, the following appeared
> >> >>>> in talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> >> >>>> Lodder):
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On 2024-03-07 22:31:27 +0000, Bob Casanova said:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> On 7 Mar 2024 17:51:40 GMT, the following appeared in
> >> >>>>>>> talk.origins, posted by dgb (David)
> >> >>>>>>> <david@nomail.afraid.org>:
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> On 7 Mar 2024 at 17:41:02 GMT, "J. J. Lodder" <J. J. Lodder>:
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> dgb <david@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> On 7 Mar 2024 at 09:38:23 GMT, "J. J. Lodder" <J. J. Lodder>:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Kalkidas <eat@joes.pub> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> dgb (David) <david@nomail.afraid.org> Wrote in message:r
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Does this occur by accident?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gol
den
> >_ra
> >> >>> tio
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Or by design?
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> It will never be known.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> There is nothing to know there,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Jan
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> The thing to know, Jan, is that it hasn't all happened by
> >> >>>>>>>>>>accident!
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> It hasn't happened at all.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> You are, of course, mistaken.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Wrong. Nothing "happened"; the so-called Golden Ratio, like
> >> >>>>>>> all mathematical relationships which describe observed
> >> >>>>>>> phenomena, is a property of physical
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> mathematical
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>   reality, no more. And,
> >> >>>>>>> of course, no less.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> You are wasting your breath. Bob is an incurable materialist,
> >> >>>>> incapable of abstraction and idealisation,
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>> Ummm, I didn't say that there are no parts of math which are
> >> >>>> abstract, only that all math relationships WHICH DESCRIBE
> >> >>>> PHYSICAL PHENOMENA are properties of those phenomena.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> So the integers are a property of your football scores?
> >> >>> "No more, and no less", like you say,
> >> >>>
> >> >> Overgeneralizations and "football scores" aside...
> >> >> 
> >> >> If I understand you, the mathematical relationships which
> >> >> describe observed physical relationships do *not* describe
> >> >> those relationships? OK. Maybe the word "properties" is
> >> >> what's causing you grief? Or maybe it's the phrase "no more
> >> >> and no less; if that's the case consider it removed,
> >> >> leaving:
> >> >> 
> >> >> "...the so-called Golden Ratio, like all mathematical
> >> >> relationships which describe observed phenomena, is a
> >> >> property of physical reality in the sense that it precisely
> >> >> describes such physical relationship."
> >> >> 
> >> >> Better? Clumsy, of course, but since hyperbole and/or
> >> >> imprecision in general discussion is apparently verboten...
> >> >
> >> >The golden ratio a/b == (a+b)/a.  Observed phenomena may approximate
> >> >that number, but the mathematical interest since antiquity has little to
> >> >do with that.  In mathematics it appears in all kinds of surprising
> >> >contexts.  Wikipedia presents many of them.
> >> >
> >> I've seen several of the physical representations; the one I
> >> remember best (unless I'm misremembering/conflating
> >> unrelated subjects; it's been many decades) involves the
> >> chambers in the chambered nautilus. I believe snail shells
> >> follow the same pattern.
> >
> >More muddled thinking on your part.
> >But do look it up. You'll find many pictures of nautilus shells,
> >and many pictures of logarithmic spirals, but very few
> >of nautilus shells with logarithmic spirals superposed.
> >(hint, it is only an approximation)
> >
> >But tp placate your engineering soul: do look up 'nautilus gears'.
> >If that doesnt convince you that god is a mathematician 
> >nothing will,
> >
> >
> No need; you've convinced me that math is irrelevant to
> reality, making it the equivalent of navel-gazing.
> 
> Have a nice day.

You'll never get it, I guess.
It is just the other way round:
reality (whatever that may be) is irrelevant to math.

And while I am it it,
it is also quite independent of anyone gazing his navel,

Jan