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From: Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.moc>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c,alt.english.usage
Subject: Indefinite pronouns [was:Re: realloc() - frequency, conditions, or
 experiences about relocation?]
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 02:51:56 +0300
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Cross-posting to alt.english.usage .

Tim Rentsch to Anton Shepelev:

> > I think it is a modern English idiom, which I dislike as
> > well.  StackOverflow is full of questions starting like:
> > "How do you do this?" and "How do I do that?"  They are
> > informal ways of the more literary "How does one do
> > this?"  or "What is the way to do that?"
>
> I have a different take here.  First the "your" of "your
> strategy" reads as a definite pronoun, meaning it refers
> specifically to Ben and not to some unknown other party.

And I am /sure/ it is intended in the general (indefinite)
sense, as is the `you' in Malcolm's two following sentences:

> You allocate a small amount for the first few bytes.  Then
> you use exponential growth, with a factor of ether 2 or
> 1.5.

This is the typical wording of impersonal instruction in
modern English.

> (And incidentally is subtly insulting because of that,
> whether it was meant that way or not.)

Yes!  My first impulse is always to interpret those pronouns
according to their literal (definite) meanings, which gives
the text an insulting (because presumptuos) taint.  This is
why I wince at the indefinite useage of first- and second-
person pronouns.

> Second the use of "you" to mean an unspecified other
> person is not idiom but standard usage.

`Idiomatic' can mean `standard':

   Of or pertaining to, or conforming to, the mode of
   expression peculiar to a language; as, an idiomatic
   meaning; an idiomatic phrase.

> The word "you" is both a definite pronoun and an
> indefinite pronoun, depending on context.

It /is/ used as in indefinite pronoun, is not widely
recognised as capable of that function:

   https://eslgrammar.org/indefinite-pronouns/
   https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/indefinite-pronouns

And when it is, only as an informal relaxation:

   https://www.englishclub.com/grammar/pronouns-indefinite.php

These recent informal usages can be ugly.

> The word "they" also has this property.

I know it, and agree:

   They took some honey from a tree,
   Dressed it up and then called it me.
   <https://on.soundcloud.com/NGz7nZgzm4hiQQbd6>

The indefinite `they' can be used formally as well.

> The word "you" is similar:  it can mean specifically the
> listener, or it can mean generically anyone in a broader
> audience, even those who never hear or read the statement
> with "you" in it.

Modern teenagers definitely see it that way, and I have to
clench my teech and adapt.

> The word "one" used as a pronoun is more formal, and to me
> at least often sounds stilted.  In US English "one" is
> most often an indefinite pronoun, either second person or
> third person.

How can it be a second-person pronoun? The famous phrase
"One never knows, do one?" features a third-person `one'
with a dialectical third-person `do'.

> But "one" can also be used as a first person definite
> pronoun (referring to the speaker), which an online
> reference tells me is chiefly British English.

I had no idea it could, nor does Wikipedia.  Can you share
an example of a definite first-person `one'?

> Finally I would normally read "I" as a first person
> definite pronoun, and not an indefinite pronoun.

And so would I, and I hate the indefinte usage.

> So I don't have any problem with someone saying "how
> should I ..." when asking for advice.  They aren't asking
> how someone else should ...  but how they should ..., and
> what advice I might give could very well depend on who is
> doing the asking.

The problem is, in 99% of cases no personal information is
given that could possibly justify the personal wording of
the question.

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