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From: will.dockery@gmail.com (W.Dockery)
Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: The Lime sock on Stephan Pickering and NAMBLA
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2025 19:41:08 +0000
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On Tue, 4 Feb 2025 19:27:25 +0000, HarryLime wrote:

> On Tue, 4 Feb 2025 18:46:01 +0000, Will Dockery wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 13:06:00 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>
>>> Since MMP is trying to disrupt his psychoanalysis by attemptint to
>>> change the subject to whatever he can think of, and since I don't want
>>> to let his attempts pass without comment, I'm being forced to open new
>>> threads on some of it.
>>> From: https://www.novabbs.com/arts/post.php?id=255645
>>>
>>> On Sun, 2 Feb 2025 12:42:11 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
>>> "HarryLime" wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 2 Feb 2025 5:55:00 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>> It seems that Senetto took the lead in attempting to drive Stephan
>>>>>> Pickering from the newsgroup though, but that may have been fueled by
>>>>>> Senetto's obvious Antisemitism.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for reminding me. It was actually MMP who did that by bringing
>>>>> NAMBLA to the group. That triggered Jim, just the way MFH triggered him
>>>>> after he was told that it was really about child molesting.
>>>>
>>>> Why do you lie so much, George?
>>>
>>> Why do you project so much, MMP? (That's a rhetorical question. As noted
>>> in
>>> your psychoanalysis, you are playing the preemption game you learned
>>> from
>>> Peter J. Ross.)
>>>
>>>> (That's a rhetorical question, as you've already intimated that your
>>>> pathological lying stems from you having been abused as a child.)
>>>
>>> No, Lying Michael: I have never said, or even "intimated" (!) that I was
>>> pathological, lying, or
>>> "abused as a child".
>>>
>>>> When Pickles joined the group, he simply posted ongoing entries in a
>>>> proposed bibliography of some Magnum Opus he had been working on for
>>>> years.  To the best of my recollection, this tome-in-progress was an
>>>> attempt to tie all of literature, culture, and history together via
>>>> Jewish themes explored in Bob Dylan songs.  Suffice to say that Pickles
>>>> had gone off the deep end decades before.
>>>
>>> Anyone who engages in deep scholarship on a subject can appear to have
>>> "gone off the deep end" to someone who knows nothing of the subject.
>>>
>>>> I attempted to engage Pickles in several conversations regarding his
>>>> posts, but he either ignored them, or spat back some angry, and
>>>> impolite, remarks.
>>>
>>> Similarly anyone who engages in deep scholarship on a subject cannot be
>>> expected to appreciate having a total ignoramus on the subject trying to
>>> explain it to him. So while I don't condone his impoliteness, I can
>>> fully understand it.
>>>
>>>> Since I didn't relish the idea of getting into a
>>>> flamewar with another nutjob (he reminded me of the 50s group's nutter,
>>>> "PhillyGuy"), I took to ignoring his posts.  Since he only posted once
>>>> or twice a week, ignoring him required little to no effort.
>>>
>>> You handled that well, IMO. "Skip and ignore" the posts and posters
>>> you don't like; as long as they stay out of your face, everyone wins.
>>>
>>>> At some point Jim and Pickles got into a flamewar regarding Ginsberg.  I
>>>> don't recall who started it.
>>>
>>> Well, allow me to refresh your memory. Jim and Stephan first got into
>>> flamewars after you formed Team Monkey with him and NastyGoon (NG), a
>>> Pickering
>>> troll. The first thing you did was invite NG into Jim's Sunday Sampler,
>>> where
>>> they (NG's preferred pronoun) would write trollpoems about Stephan. The
>>> result would be Stephan jumping into the Sampler, which would result in
>>> JIm
>>> flaming him and others (for example, Richard Oakley) also being turned
>>> against Jim. I doubt that either Jim nor STephan realized that you were
>>> manipulating them for that outcome.
>>>
>>> After Jim and Stephan became engaged in a prolonged flamewar, both on
>>> and
>>> off the Sampler, the second thing you did was start flooding the group
>>> with
>>> a nasty, libellous document that NG had written.
>>>
>>> The third thing you did, a month or so of that, when Jim and Stephan
>>> were thoroughly
>>> engaged with each other, you went deep diving outside the group for
>>> information on NAMBLA, and found a quotation from Allan Ginsberg
>>> ("I have never had sex with anyone under 15" or WTTE), which you began
>>> posting here, calling Ginsberg a "pedophile" (or predator); and then
>>> when others objected to that (like Stephan, Will, or myself), you began
>>> calling those people "pedophiles" as well.
>>>
>>>> Most likely Jim had condemned Ginsberg as
>>>> a child molester, and Pickles (who worshipped Ginsberg) spazzed.
>>>
>>> That is a fair summary of what I just said, though you left out that you
>>> (and Jim)
>>> were calling Stephan a child molester as well. No one appreciates being
>>> called names like that by cowardly trolls on the internet.
>>>
>>>> Their
>>>> fight had been going for what had become a fairly large-sized thread
>>>> when I decided to see what all the bruhaha was about.
>>>
>>>> (As I said, I'd
>>>> been ignoring Pickles' threads, and having no interest in Ginsberg, had
>>>> been avoiding this thread as well.)
>>>>
>>>> When I read Jim's accusations, I google Ginsberg and discovered that
>>>> he'd openly discussed having had sex with minors, hinted (as strongly as
>>>> possible, considering that statutory rape is a criminal offense) at
>>>> having had sex with boys aged 14 or under (he said that was the age when
>>>> boys were most desirable), was a member of NAMBLA and had been serving
>>>> as that organization's poster boy, publicly championing them and their
>>>> agenda (to legalize sex between adults and children).
>>>
>>> Indeed, Ginsberg and Camille Paglia both "championed" NAMBLA's right to
>>> free speech on that contentious subject, and in fact led their
>>> counter-parade when they were kicked out of NY's Pride parade.
>>>
>>>> I was appalled that a public figure was able to be a member of NAMBLA,
>>>> and to speak about having had sex with minors, and was somehow not only
>>>> a free man, but was still considered a renowned poet and even a cultural
>>>> icon.  I therefore joined in the argument, backing Jim.
>>>
>>> Actually, as I remember, you did not merely join in their flame wars,
>>> but began disrupting every thread Stephan was on (chiefly with Will), to
>>> flame him about it - which of course turned Will against you as well.
>>>
>>>> I don't know if I was the first to introduce NAMBLA into the group.
>>>
>>> Not at all. That was Chuck Lysaght years before that. He was roundly
>>> spanked by
>>> jr sherman, who pointed out that all Ginsberg championed was their (and
>>> Ginsberg's) right to talk about the subject, and it died off. AFAIK, you
>>> were the first to revive it.
>>>
>>>> I'm
>>>> sure that it must have come up once or twice in the 15 - 20 years of
>>>> flame wars before my arrival -- but whatever.  I'm pretty sure that I
>>>> was the one who'd introduced it into that particular argument.
>>>>
>>>> In an attempt to defend Ginsberg, Pickles told us that he had been to
>>>> NAMBLA meetings, listened to speakers at NAMBLA conventions, and taken
>>>> NAMBLA members out to dinner on several occasions, and could attest that
>>>> they were all good people.
>>>
>>> Stephan said a lot of things, on memory and without check, some of which
>>> were demonstrably untrue. (For example, his alleged dinners with NAMBLA
>>> were said to take place during Dylan's Rolling Thunder tour, which was
>>> years before NAMBLA was even founded.) there was no reason to trust
>>> his memory of any ot that.
>>>
>>>> NancyGene quoted posts Pickles had made in another forum, wherein he'd
>>>> argued that "legal age" was a meaningless concept, that the majority of
>>>> civilizations and cultures had no such age, that incest was not only
>>>> common in other cultures, but was a desirable thing.
>>>
>>> Yes, through all this NG continued to troll Stephan, and posted a lot
>>> of scurrilous claims about what he'd said (real, misprepresented, or
>>> completely
>>> made up). I didn't bother to check them, but (having been trolled by NG
>>> myself) I would nt vouch for their accuracy.
>>>
>>> IIRC, Ginsberg said that "legal age" was an arbitrary concept, which of
>>> course it is (just look at the USA, where the age of consent is
>>> different from
>>> state to state). he did not say that there was no age of cnnsent in
>>> other
>>> states, just that it varies. (For example, in much of the the Moslem
>>> world,
>>> the age at which a girl can be married is 9.) As for incest, NG found
>>> and
>>> quoted a statement Stephan made ridiculing "rape" charge laid aginat  a
>>> mother
>>> who'd had sex with her 17-year-old son.
>>>
>>>> Pickles not only defended his stance in said quotes, but further
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