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Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!i2pn.org!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: DDD emulated by HHH --- (does not refer to prior posts) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2024 20:23:36 -0400 Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org) Message-ID: <27ec035daac2866772d92f786b8694318d1bf94a@i2pn2.org> References: <vajdta$2qe9s$1@dont-email.me> <vak3a0$2teq9$1@dont-email.me> <vakhnf$302rl$2@dont-email.me> <vamk7l$3d7ki$1@dont-email.me> <van3v7$3f6c0$5@dont-email.me> <vap7b1$3sobs$1@dont-email.me> <vapvbc$3vumk$5@dont-email.me> <e10aee5b3ede543da42ba76ac4d7f0a0fe762695@i2pn2.org> <vasmn8$hmpd$1@dont-email.me> <vaumg9$ut9s$1@dont-email.me> <vav0r9$10jsm$1@dont-email.me> <vavb4a$11uqn$1@dont-email.me> <vavca1$1283f$1@dont-email.me> <vave2b$11uqn$7@dont-email.me> <vavfoi$12m8t$4@dont-email.me> <vb1hq0$1fgj7$1@dont-email.me> <vb4enb$2rs5t$3@dont-email.me> <vb6iop$39hrf$1@dont-email.me> <vb74m3$3b4ub$11@dont-email.me> <vb9arj$3psb3$2@dont-email.me> <vb9mkc$3rh1t$4@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2024 00:23:37 -0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: i2pn2.org; logging-data="879726"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org"; posting-account="diqKR1lalukngNWEqoq9/uFtbkm5U+w3w6FQ0yesrXg"; User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <vb9mkc$3rh1t$4@dont-email.me> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 Bytes: 13599 Lines: 265 On 9/4/24 9:17 AM, olcott wrote: > On 9/4/2024 4:56 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >> Op 03.sep.2024 om 15:58 schreef olcott: >>> On 9/3/2024 3:52 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>> On 2024-09-02 13:31:23 +0000, olcott said: >>>> >>>>> On 9/1/2024 6:05 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>> On 2024-08-31 16:18:26 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 8/31/2024 10:49 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>> Op 31.aug.2024 om 17:19 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>> On 8/31/2024 9:59 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Op 31.aug.2024 om 14:03 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>> On 8/31/2024 4:07 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Op 30.aug.2024 om 16:58 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/2024 9:56 AM, joes wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Thu, 29 Aug 2024 09:07:39 -0500 schrieb olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/29/2024 2:17 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-28 12:08:06 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/28/2024 2:39 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-27 12:44:31 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/27/2024 3:38 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 27.aug.2024 om 04:33 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is intended to be a stand-alone post that does >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not reference >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything else mentioned in any other posts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD() >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55 push ebp ; housekeeping >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8bec mov ebp,esp ; housekeeping [00002175] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6872210000 push >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 00002172 ; push DDD [0000217a] e853f4ffff call >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 000015d2 ; call >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH(DDD) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404 add esp,+04 [00002182] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5d pop ebp >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3 ret Size in bytes:(0018) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When we assume that: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) HHH is an x86 emulator that is in the same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> memory space as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD. (b) HHH emulates DDD according to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> semantics of the x86 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> language. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then we can see that DDD emulated by HHH cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly get past >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its own machine address 0000217a. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we see. In fact DDD is not needed at all. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You should also point a link to the equivocation >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fallacy. You use it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more often than straw man. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Isomorphism is not equivocation >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The use of HHH for many purposes (a specific program, an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unpsecified >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> memeber of a set of programs, a hypothetical program) is. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your first posting looked like you were going to apply >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equivocation >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> later in the discussion. Now, after several later >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> messages, it seems >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you want to apply the fallacy of "moving the goal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> posts" instead. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH correctly predicts what the behavior of DDD would be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if this HHH >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never aborted its emulation of DDD. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Problem is, DDD is then not calling itself, but the non- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> input of a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not-aborting HHH. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs* >>>>>>>>>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs* >>>>>>>>>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs* >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Here is your problem. The code of the program and its >>>>>>>>>>>> meaning according to the semantics of the x86 language, does >>>>>>>>>>>> not suddenly change when the aborting occurs. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You cannot possibly say one damn thing about the behavior of DDD >>>>>>>>>>> until you first understand that a world class x86 emulator that >>>>>>>>>>> HHH calls does enable HHH to correctly emulate itself emulating >>>>>>>>>>> DDD and the following execution trace proves this. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And when this unmodified world class x86 simulator was given >>>>>>>>>> olcott's DDD based on the aborting HHH as input, it showed >>>>>>>>>> that this has halting behaviour. >>>>>>>>>> THIS IS A VERIFIED FACT! Even olcott has verified it. >>>>>>>>>> This correct simulation by the unmodified world class >>>>>>>>>> simulator tells us that the program has a halting behaviour. >>>>>>>>>> Your *modification* of the simulator stops the simulation >>>>>>>>>> before it can see the halting behaviour and decides that the >>>>>>>>>> input is non- halting. >>>>>>>>>> We know which one is correct: the unmodified world class >>>>>>>>>> simulator, not the *modified* one, which aborts one cycle too >>>>>>>>>> soon.. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> SO, it it not honest to suggest that we do not understand what >>>>>>>>>> the world class simulator predicts. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> SE CANNOT POSSIBLY HAVE ANY HONEST DIALOGUE WHEN MY REVIEWERS >>>>>>>>>>> INSIST ON LYING ABOUT VERIFIED FACTS. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> No evidence given. No reference to a single lie. >>>>>>>>>> Olcott seems just a bit short of memory. >>>>>>>>>> It is unclear why olcott hides these verified fact, which he >>>>>>>>>> knows are true. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _DDD() >>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55 push ebp ; housekeeping >>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; housekeeping >>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD >>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD) >>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404 add esp,+04 >>>>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d pop ebp >>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3 ret >>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183] >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _main() >>>>>>>>>>> [00002192] 55 push ebp >>>>>>>>>>> [00002193] 8bec mov ebp,esp >>>>>>>>>>> [00002195] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD >>>>>>>>>>> [0000219a] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD) >>>>>>>>>>> [0000219f] 83c404 add esp,+04 >>>>>>>>>>> [000021a2] 50 push eax >>>>>>>>>>> [000021a3] 6843070000 push 00000743 >>>>>>>>>>> [000021a8] e8b5e5ffff call 00000762 >>>>>>>>>>> [000021ad] 83c408 add esp,+08 >>>>>>>>>>> [000021b0] 33c0 xor eax,eax >>>>>>>>>>> [000021b2] 5d pop ebp >>>>>>>>>>> [000021b3] c3 ret >>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0034) [000021b3] >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> machine stack stack machine assembly >>>>>>>>>>> address address data code language >>>>>>>>>>> ======== ======== ======== ========= ============= >>>>>>>>>>> [00002192][00103820][00000000] 55 push ebp ; >>>>>>>>>>> Begin main() >>>>>>>>>>> [00002193][00103820][00000000] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; >>>>>>>>>>> housekeeping >>>>>>>>>>> [00002195][0010381c][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; >>>>>>>>>>> push DDD >>>>>>>>>>> [0000219a][00103818][0000219f] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 ; >>>>>>>>>>> call HHH(DDD) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:1038c4 >>>>>>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored >>>>>>>>>>> at:1138cc >>>>>>>>>>> [00002172][001138bc][001138c0] 55 push ebp ; >>>>>>>>>>> housekeeping >>>>>>>>>>> [00002173][001138bc][001138c0] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; >>>>>>>>>>> housekeeping >>>>>>>>>>> [00002175][001138b8][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; >>>>>>>>>>> push DDD >>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a][001138b4][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; >>>>>>>>>>> call HHH(DDD) >>>>>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:14e2ec >>>>>>>>>>> [00002172][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 55 push ebp ; >>>>>>>>>>> housekeeping >>>>>>>>>>> [00002173][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; >>>>>>>>>>> housekeeping >>>>>>>>>>> [00002175][0015e2e0][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; >>>>>>>>>>> push DDD ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========