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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Sequence of sequence, selection and iteration matters --- Ben
 agrees (typo corrected)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 07:29:17 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 7/9/24 12:01 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 7/8/2024 9:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 7/8/24 10:06 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 7/8/2024 9:01 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 7/8/24 9:23 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 7/8/2024 7:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/8/24 8:21 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/8/2024 6:59 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/8/24 7:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 7/8/2024 6:26 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 7/8/24 9:04 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/8/2024 2:22 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-07-07 14:16:10 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55               push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec             mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000       push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff       call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404           add esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d               pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3               ret
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sufficient knowledge of the x86 language conclusively proves
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the call from DDD correctly emulated by HHH to HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot possibly return for any pure function HHH.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Suffifcient knowledge of the x86 language makes obvious that
>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD returns if and only if HHH returns.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That is insufficient knowledge. Sufficient knowledge proves that
>>>>>>>>>>> DDD correctly simulated by HHH meets this criteria.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nope, YOU have the insufficent knowledge, since you don't 
>>>>>>>>>> understand that the x86 language says programs are 
>>>>>>>>>> deterministic, and their behavior is fully establish when they 
>>>>>>>>>> are written, and running or simulating them is only a way to 
>>>>>>>>>> observe that behavior, and the only CORRECT observation of all 
>>>>>>>>>> the behavior, so letting that operation reach its final state.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 
>>>>>>>>> 10/13/2022>
>>>>>>>>>      If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D
>>>>>>>>>      until H correctly determines that its simulated D would never
>>>>>>>>>      stop running unless aborted then
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
>>>>>>>>>      specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
>>>>>>>>> </MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 
>>>>>>>>> 10/13/2022>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which you H doesn't meet, since the definition of "Correct 
>>>>>>>> Simulation" here (as for most people) is a simulation that 
>>>>>>>> exactly reproduces the behavior of the full program the input 
>>>>>>>> represents, which means a simulaiton that doesn't abort.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since your H doesn't do that, or correctly determine what one of 
>>>>>>>> those would do (since it would halt since you H returns 0) so 
>>>>>>>> you CAN'T correctly predict that which doesn't happen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Ben agrees that the "if" statement has been met*
>>>>>>>>> *Ben agrees that the "if" statement has been met*
>>>>>>>>> *Ben agrees that the "if" statement has been met*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, he agress that your H, which is NOT a Halt Decider, is 
>>>>>>>> correctly answering your non-halt-deciding question.  In other 
>>>>>>>> words, it is a correct POOP decide.r
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is literally true that Ben agrees that the "if" statement
>>>>>>> has been met.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Same words, but different meanings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SO, NO
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ben disagrees with the second part because Ben fails to understand
>>>>>>> that HHH cannot correctly report that DDD would stop running until
>>>>>>> after HHH forces DDD to stop running.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, HE understand that HHH to be a halt decider MUST correctly 
>>>>>> report that DDD will stop running since HHH(DDD) returns.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> YOU are the one that doesn't understand the problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When you need groceries you cannot say that you
>>>>>>> don't need groceries until AFTER you get more groceries.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which is just Red Herring, as I am not a program, and the program 
>>>>>> is not me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something you don't understand, maybe because you sold your free 
>>>>>> will and got a deterministic program instead.
>>>>>
>>>>> *Free will does not make lies into truth*
>>>>>
>>>>> If HHH reports that it does not need to abort
>>>>> DDD before it aborts DDD then HHH is a liar.
>>>>
>>>> No, It COULD report that it has determined that it doesn't NEED to 
>>>> abort its simulation, but does so anyway. 
>>>
>>> Says someone that acts as if lies are true.
>>> If HHH reports that it didn't need to abort then HHH lies.
>>>
>>
>> Why do you say that, since it DOES abort, it doesn't need to.
>>
> 
> It correctly determines that it needs to abort,
> it aborts then it reports that it needed to abort.

But that is the question of POOP, not halting.

Halting asks if the input will halt.

Halting is objective, and a valid question.

POOPing is subjective and not a valid question.

> 
>> You think HHH can be something it isn't because you just don't know 
>> what a program is.
>