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From: Zionazi <marcs12212@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.recordings
Subject: Re: Sokolov playing Hammerklavier
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2024 06:21:14 +0000
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On Sat, 16 Nov 2024 19:09:52 +0000, DeepBlue wrote:

> On Sat, 16 Nov 2024 17:43:22 +0000, Zionazi wrote:
>>
>> https://youtu.be/OB6kU36MCB0?si=CCLd8NCiNpwbFuJe
>>
>> And I want to ask, did Sokolov listen to what he
>> plays? Why did he choose to play this unmusical
>> work?
>
> He did/does listen, though not through your ears,
> and with different expectations. Just as in every
> other line of work, professional musicians function
> in a different space than their listeners. They hear
> the music from the "inside", while listeners hear the
> music from "outside". These are different perspectives.
>
> There is a tension, sometimes even a manifest conflict
> between rendering scores in a "faithful" way, versus
> moving the audience. I brought this up many times in
> this ng.
>
>> There is a short moment in the second movement I find
>> sort of interesting… the rest is just — I don’t understand…
>> Schönberg creates interesting colors… but this… what am I
>> supposed to see here? Beautiful form? I don’t understand…
>> if the form were beautiful or good the work would be good…
>> but this is not good…
>
> "Form" does not create "expression" just by itself.
>
>> I have trouble understanding why people like this…
>> what moments people especially like in this piece…
>
> "People" have been conditioned to "like" this piece
> by centuries of pedantic brainwashing. If Beethoven
> is the greatest composer who ever lived, it must
> then follow the biggest longest work he wrote for
> the piano must be an absolute masterpiece, and it
> does not matter a bit how it sounds in people's
> ears. This is the result of analyzing and teaching
> music in a circular, self-referential system. Add
> to this the fascination with difficulty.
>
>> I don’t understand how people are endlessly fascinated
>> by this piece, how people devote so much time studying
>> this — I don’t like Chopin, but I can see why people
>> would like to play him…. But this?!?!
>
> Humans have always held a fascination for physical
> difficulty and for acrobatics. This occurs in music
> as well. Paganini's Caprices, Ernst's Last Rose of
> Spring, Liszt's Transcendental Etudes, et... all
> belong in this bucket. They are admired not only
> for their musical ideas, but also for execution
> difficulty. The Hammerklavier also falls in the
> same bucket -- except without the music.

Yeah, thank you for your time and thoughts — I agree to a degree; still
think there is music in it though, although very very very little… there
are some things - in an abstract sense -, like the way plays around with
trills — although the playing around seems a bit coarse maybe… - you can
actually take inspiration from… it’s just that Beethoven - imo - didn’t
manage to do anything great with this idea - but the idea is good… but
then again I feel this idea is nothing too special in the sense that
many people could have had it — using trills in a more creative way

With Mozart I’m always dumbfounded… it’s like how is he able to do this…
with the way Beethoven uses the trills here… eh…

But Beethoven is actually playful here…

Also - as is often the case w Beethoven - this piece seems to aim at
being profound… but man… I can’t take this… like it seem so cheap… - say
the beginning

>
>> Sure probably there are things here no one did
>> before… but it sounds like shit…
>
> I would suggest listening to HJ Lim for a reading
> that almost makes it sound like music:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtYT67nV76M
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cN-oytHPA0U
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jOt--GPleU
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf2Qlv_711U

It still sucks… but so do the other pieces - as far as I’ve heard - you
have mentioned above

Won’t be able to wasting anymore time with this stupid piece…

>
> Cheers!