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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 May 2025 21:05:33 +0000
Subject: Re: Functions computed by Turing Machines MUST apply finite string
 transformations to inputs --- MT
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <TuuNP.2706011$nb1.2053729@fx01.ams4>
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From: Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com>
Date: Sat, 3 May 2025 22:05:32 +0100
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On 03/05/2025 16:52, olcott wrote:
> On 5/2/2025 8:16 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>> On 02/05/2025 06:06, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>> On 02/05/2025 05:08, dbush wrote:
>>>> On 5/1/2025 11:57 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/1/2025 9:40 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>>>> So you changed the input.  Changing the input is not allowed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I never changed the input.
>>>>
>>>> Yes you did.  You hypothesize changing the code of HHH, and HHH is part of the input. So you 
>>>> changed the input.
>>>
>>>
>>> Agreed.
>>>
>>>> Changing the input is not allowed.
>>>
>>> Wweellll...
>>>
>>> I have a very minor objection to that view, an objection that I've wrapped up into a thought 
>>> experiment.
>>>
>>> Let us hypothesise the paradoxical existence of U, a universal decider. If we pass it an 
>>> arbitrary P and an arbitrary D, it can defy Turing (we're just hypothesising, remember) and 
>>> produce a correct result. Cool, right? The snag is that it's a black box. We can't see the code.
>>>
>>> We set it to work, and for years we use it to prove all manner of questions - PvNP, Collatz, 
>>> Goldbach, Riemann, the lot - and it turns out always to be right. That's good, right?
>>>
>>> But then one fine day in 2038 we are finally allowed to see the source code for U, which is when 
>>> we discover that the algorithm >>>changes the input<<< in some small way. Does that invalidate 
>>> the answers it has been providing for over a decade, thousands of answers that have / all/ been 
>>> verified?
>>
>> Nobody would suggest that TMs aren't allowed to write to their tape!  Of course, that's part of 
>> how they work, and is not what posters mean by PO "changing the input".
>>
>>>
>>> I would argue that it doesn't. Provided U(P,D) correctly reports on the behaviour a P(D) call 
>>> would produce, I would argue that that's all that matters, and the fact that U twiddles with the 
>>> P and D tapes and turns them into P' and D' is irrelevant, as long as the result we get is that 
>>> of P(D), not P'(D').
>>
>> Right.  What you're describing is business as usual for TMs.
>>
>>>
>>> Let me show this graphically using a much simpler example - addition:
>>>
>>> D: 1111111111+1111111
>>> P: add 'em up
>>>
>>> P(D)!
>>>
>>> D': 11111111111111111
>>>
>>> P has changed its input by changing the + to a 1 and erasing the last 1, and D' now holds the 
>>> correct answer to the question originally posed on D.
>>>
>>> I would argue that this is /perfectly fine/, and that there is nothing in Turing's problem 
>>> statement to forbid it. But of course we must be careful that, even if U does change its inputs 
>>> to P' and D', it must still correctly answer the question P(D).
>>
>> Nothing wrong with that.
>>
>> BTW all the stuff above about universal deciders turns out to be irrelevant to your argument!  (It 
>> just seems a bit odd to choose a non- existant TM as an example when any other (existant) TM would 
>> do the job more clearly...)
>>
>>>
>>> Of course, Mr Olcott's change is rather different, because by changing his HHH he's actually 
>>> changing the behaviour of his DD - i.e. specifying a new U - but I see no reason why he can't do 
>>> that / provided/ he can show that he always gets the correct answer. He has so far failed to do 
>>> this with the original HHH, and now he has doubled his workload by giving himself another HHH to 
>>> defend.
>>
>> Right - PO's H is free to rewrite the tape in whatever way it likes, provided in the end it gets 
>> the right answer.
>>
>> The "you're not allowed to change the input" charge means something quite different.
>>
>> TLDR:  Your talking about TMs writing to their tape as part of their normal operation.  Nothing 
>> wrong with that.  PO is effectively talking about changing the meaning of D [the input to H] half 
>> way through the Sipser quote.
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> NTLFM:
>>
>> PO is trying to interpret Sipser's quote:
>>
>> --- Start Sipser quote
>>       If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D
>>       until H correctly determines that its simulated D would never
>>       stop running unless aborted then
>>
>>       H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
>>       specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
>> --- End Sipser quote
>>
>> The following interpretation is ok:
>>
>>      If H is given input D, and while simulating D gathers enough
>>      information to deduce that UTM(D) would never halt, then
>>      H can abort its simulation and decide D never halts.
>>
> 
> When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
...if H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qy

> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
...if H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* H.qn

Both the above cannot be correct as you wrote them!  (You don't understand the Linz notation, and 
"no" you haven't "enhanced it" or whatever you think you've done)

> 
> (a) Ĥ copies its input ⟨Ĥ⟩
> (b) Ĥ invokes embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
> (c) embedded_H simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
> (d) simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ copies its input ⟨Ĥ⟩
> (e) simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ invokes simulated embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
> (f) simulated embedded_H simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
> (g) goto (d) with one more level of simulation

But this does not continue indefinitely.  You forget that when you say

(c) embedded_H simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩

embedded_H does not just stop running until the simulation returns.  embedded_H is still running 
throughout the simulation and is monitoring progress to decide whether of not to abort.  At some 
point it /does/ decide to abort, and steps (d)(e)(f)(g) become moot.  Truth is they were always just 
an explanation for what is happening in (c), and (c) is the actual TM code running.

So to continue, (c) aborts at some point, and

embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn       // one of the options you listed above

Ĥ.qn is a halt state for Ĥ, IN OTHER WORDS When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩, Ĥ HALTS.⟩

> 
> In other words if embedded_H was a UTM would cause
> Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ to never halt then embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
> is correctly ruled to never halt.

No, that's all wrong.  You are trying to apply the Sipser quote to justify embedded_H deciding 
never_halt ?  That's not what the quote says.  From above:

 >> The following interpretation is ok:
 >>
 >>      If H is given input D, and while simulating D gathers enough
 >>      information to deduce that UTM(D) would never halt, then
 >>      H can abort its simulation and decide D never halts.

And we have

(c) embedded_H simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩

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