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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it --- key error
 in all the proofs
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2024 13:07:33 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <3500d58a81731b04d9ee6628f779ce33ef8a0f87@i2pn2.org>
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On 8/12/24 12:42 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 8/12/2024 11:10 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 8/12/24 11:34 AM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 8/12/2024 10:05 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 8/12/24 9:16 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 8/12/2024 8:04 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/12/24 8:43 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/11/2024 12:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/11/24 8:40 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 8/11/2024 6:08 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 10:38 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 9:21 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 9:43 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 8:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 8:51 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 7:20 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 7:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 5:47 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 6:41 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 4:53 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 5:37 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 4:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 5:18 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 3:58 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 4:36 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I have countlessly proven it only requires 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated steps to correctly infer that the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input would never
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reach is "return" instruction halt state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Except that HHH does't do that, since if HHH 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decides to abort and return, then the DDD that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is emulating WILL return, just after HHH has 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stopped its emulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You just confuse the behavior of DDD with the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PARTIAL emulation that HHH does, because you lie 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about your false "tautology".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Denying a tautology seems to make you a liar. I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say "seems to" because I know that I am fallible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Claiming a false statement is a tautology only 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make you a liar.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this case, you lie is that the HHH that you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are talking about do the "correct emulation" you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> base you claim on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is just a deception like the devil uses, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has just a hint of truth, but the core is a lie.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What I say is provably correct on the basis of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> semantics of the x86 language.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The x86 language says DDD will Halt if HHH(DDD) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> returns a value.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH is called by main() there is no directly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> executed DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any where in the whole computation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Except in your requirements, and we can see what it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does by adding a call to DDD from main, since 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing in your system calls main.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All that you need to know is that there is not any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> directly executed DDD() anywhere in the computation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But there ccould be, and the behavior of it is what 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matters.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The key error of the halting problem proofs all of these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years has been the false assumption that a halt decider
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must report on the behavior of the computation that itself
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is contained within.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But it isn't a false assemption, but an actual requirement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Halt Decider must be able to correctly answer for ANY 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Turing Machine represented as its input.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ANY includes those that are built from a copy of itself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, a Halt Decider needs to be able to correctly answer 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about programs that include copies of itself, even with 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contrary behavior, which is what makes it impossible to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> compute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem to confuse non-computable with invalid, it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems in part because you don't understand the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> difference between knowledge and truth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone has simply assumed that the behavior of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input to a decider must exactly match the direct execution
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of this input. They only did this because everyone 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rejected
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation out-of-hand without review.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because that is the DEFINITION of what it is to decide on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You just don't understand what a requirement is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since the DEFINITION of "Correct Simulation" that you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are trying to use (from a UTM) means a machine the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EXACTLY reproduces the behavior of the direct exectution 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the machine described by the input, the correct 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation must exactly match the behavior of the direct 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> execution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can't get out of it by trying to lie about it being 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This caused them to never notice that the input simulated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> according to its correct semantics does call its own 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decider
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in recursive simulation thus cannot possibly return to its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> caller. The Linz proof is sufficiently isomorphic so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this equally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applies to the Linz TM proof.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope, just shows you don't know what "Correct" means.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your proof is NOT "sufficiently isomorphic" since by 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your own claims it is clearly not even Turing Complete, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so no where near isomorphic.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If HHH were to report on the direct execution of DDD it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be breaking the definition of a halt decider that only 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the mapping from its input...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope. Since the mapping that it is supposed to compute 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is DEFINED as based on the direct exectut
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No it never has been this. I has always been a mapping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the behavior that the finite string specifies. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has never been the behavior of the actual computation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the decider is contained within.
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