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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: The input to HHH(DDD) specifies a non-halting sequence of
 configurations +++
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 21:45:51 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 6/16/25 4:08 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 6/16/2025 6:40 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2025-06-15 13:57:01 +0000, olcott said:
>>
>>> On 6/15/2025 3:44 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>> Op 14.jun.2025 om 16:07 schreef olcott:
>>>>> On 6/13/2025 6:02 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2025-06-11 14:03:41 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 6/11/2025 3:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2025-06-10 15:41:33 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 6/10/2025 6:41 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-06-10 00:47:12 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/9/2025 7:26 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/9/25 10:43 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/9/2025 5:31 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.jun.2025 om 06:15 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/8/2025 10:42 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/8/2025 11:39 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/8/2025 10:32 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/8/2025 11:16 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/8/2025 10:08 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/8/2025 10:50 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> void DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    HHH(DDD);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    return;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The *input* to simulating termination analyzer 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No it's not, as halt deciders / termination 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> analyzers work with algorithms,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is stupidly counter-factual.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That you think that shows that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My understanding is deeper than yours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No decider ever takes any algorithm as its input.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But they take a description/specification of an algorithm,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There you go.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which is what is meant in this context.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It turns out that this detail makes a big difference.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And because your HHH does not work with the description/ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specification of an algorithm, by your own admission, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're not working on the halting problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH(DDD) takes a finite string of x86 instructions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that specify that HHH simulates itself simulating DDD.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And HHH fails to see the specification of the x86 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructions. It aborts before it can see how the program 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ends.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is merely a lack of sufficient technical competence
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on your part. It is a verified fact that unless the outer
>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH aborts its simulation of DDD that DDD simulated by HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the directly executed DDD() and the directly executed HHH()
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would never stop running. That you cannot directly see this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is merely your own lack of sufficient technical competence.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And it is a verified fact that you just ignore that if HHH 
>>>>>>>>>>>> does in fact abort its simulation of DDD and return 0, then 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the behavior of the input, PER THE ACTUAL DEFINITIONS, is to 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Halt, and thus HHH is just incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> void DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>    HHH(DDD);
>>>>>>>>>>>    return;
>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How the f-ck does DDD correctly simulated by HHH
>>>>>>>>>>> reach its own "return" statement final halt state?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If HHH is not a decider the question is not interesting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I switched to the term: "termination analyzer" because halt 
>>>>>>>>> deciders
>>>>>>>>> have the impossible task of being all knowing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The termination problem is in certain sense harder than the halting
>>>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not at all
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's in another sense in which nothing is harder than impossible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> void DDD()
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>    HHH(DDD);
>>>>>>>    return;
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If HHH only determines non-halting correctly for the
>>>>>>> above input and gets the wrong answer on everything
>>>>>>> else then HHH *is* a correct termination analyzer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is not a correct termination analyzer if if gives the wrong 
>>>>>> answer.
>>>>>
>>>>> *Key verified facts such that disagreement is inherently incorrect*
>>>>>
>>>>> (a) HHH(DDD) does not correctly report on the behavior of its caller.
>>>>
>>>> Irrelevant. HHH should decide about the program specified in the 
>>>> input, whether or not it is the same code used by the caller.
>>>
>>> In other words you do not understand that a partial
>>> halt decider is not allowed to report on the behavior
>>> of its caller and only allowed to report on the behavior
>>> specified by the sequence of state transitions specified
>>> by its input.
>>
>> It is not allowed to report incorrectly. There are no prohibitions
>> against correct reporting.
>>
> 
> And you do not understand which is which.

No, you don't because you forget the actual question, which askes about 
the program the input represents/specifies/describes which *IS* DDD, and 
thus its caller.

> 
> int main()
> {
>    DDD(); // Calls HHH(DDD) that cannot report on the
> }        // behavior of its caller because it cannot
>           // see its caller. Its caller could have been main()
> 
> 

Sure it does, its caller was described by its input.

That you you LIED about what you are doing.

Sorry, you are just proving you lie.