Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!i2pn.org!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: joes <noreply@example.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 16:11:54 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <4002beba0e0a2524a5ef4009ed22d0a57ce271cb@i2pn2.org>
References: <v6un9t$3nufp$1@dont-email.me> <v7013v$2ccv$1@dont-email.me>
	<v70nt7$61d8$6@dont-email.me>
	<58fc6559638120b31e128fe97b5e955248afe218@i2pn2.org>
	<v71mjh$bp3i$1@dont-email.me>
	<1173a460ee95e0ca82c08abecdefc80ba86646ac@i2pn2.org>
	<v71okl$bvm2$1@dont-email.me>
	<5f6daf68f1b4ffac854d239282bc811b5b806659@i2pn2.org>
	<v71ttb$crk4$1@dont-email.me>
	<60e7a93cb8cec0afb68b3e40a0e82e9d63fa8e2a@i2pn2.org>
	<v721po$h4kr$1@dont-email.me> <v75a0l$16bjt$1@dont-email.me>
	<v76dth$1cf96$3@dont-email.me> <v77sna$1o83i$1@dont-email.me>
	<v78grc$1rc43$7@dont-email.me> <v7d68d$2t7st$1@dont-email.me>
	<v7dss5$30pvh$5@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 16:11:54 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: i2pn2.org;
	logging-data="3814591"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org";
	posting-account="nS1KMHaUuWOnF/ukOJzx6Ssd8y16q9UPs1GZ+I3D0CM";
User-Agent: Pan/0.145 (Duplicitous mercenary valetism; d7e168a
 git.gnome.org/pan2)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0
Bytes: 4265
Lines: 52

Am Fri, 19 Jul 2024 09:23:01 -0500 schrieb olcott:
> On 7/19/2024 2:57 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2024-07-17 13:27:08 +0000, olcott said:
>>> On 7/17/2024 2:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2024-07-16 18:24:49 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>> On 7/16/2024 3:12 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-07-15 02:33:28 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>> On 7/14/2024 9:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/14/24 9:27 PM, olcott wrote:

>>>>>> You have already said that a decider is not allowed to answer
>>>>>> anything other than its input. Now you say that the the program at
>>>>>> 15c3 is not a part of the input. Therefore a decider is not allowed
>>>>>> consider it even to the extent to decide whether it ever returns.
>>>>>> But without that knowledge it is not possible to determine whether
>>>>>> DDD halts.
>>>>> It maps the finite string 558bec6863210000e853f4ffff83c4045dc3 to
>>>>> non-halting behavior because this finite string calls HHH(DDD)
>>>>> in recursive simulation.
>>>> That mapping is not a part of the finite string and not a part of the
>>>> problem specification.
>>> decider/input pairs <are> a key element of the specification.
>> Not of any specification of any interesting problem.
> Everyone here seems to think that they can stupidly ignore the fact that
> an input calls its own decider and make pretend that this pathological
> relationship does not exist.

>>>> The finite string does not reveal what is the effect of calling
>>>> whatever that address happens to contain.
>>> A simulating termination analyzer proves this.
>> Irrelevant, as you just said it is not a part of the input.
> It is not part of the input in that we already know that HHH halts and
> we only need to find out whether or not DDD halts.
That is trivial since DDD only calls HHH.

>>>> The behaviour of HHH is specified outside of the input. Therefore
>>>> your "decider" decides about a non-input, which you said is not
>>>> allowed.
>>> HHH is not allowed to report on the behavior of it actual self in its
>>> own directly executed process. HHH is allowed to report on the effect
>>> of the behavior of the simulation of itself simulating DDD.
>> Now you said that it is allowed to report on a non-input.
>> Earlier you have said that it is not allowed to report on a non-input.
> Not the same. It cannot report on its actual self as a directly executed
> process. I can report on a copy of itself that it being emulating in a
> different process.
It has no need to report on itself, it can just do whatever it does.
All running or (completely) simulated copies of it behave the same.
It is not immediately simulating itself; its input is DDD.

-- 
Am Fri, 28 Jun 2024 16:52:17 -0500 schrieb olcott:
Objectively I am a genius.