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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Try and prove that DDD correctly emulated by HHH reaches its
 final halt state
Date: Sun, 11 May 2025 16:13:34 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 5/11/25 12:23 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/11/2025 4:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2025-05-10 15:33:50 +0000, olcott said:
>>
>>> On 5/10/2025 2:40 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2025-05-10 01:26:54 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>
>>>>> void DDD()
>>>>> {
>>>>>    HHH(DDD);
>>>>>    return;
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>
>>>>> Try to show how DDD emulated by HHH according to the
>>>>> rules of the x86 language reaches its own "ret"
>>>>> instruction final halt state.
>>>>
>>>> If you do the impossible then everything happens, including
>>>> the reaching of the final "ret" instruction. In this case
>>>> the impossible is a correct emulation of DDD by HHH according
>>>> to the rules of the x86 language.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It is not impossible for DDD to be emulated
>>> by HHH according to the rules of the x86 language.
>>
>> You may call it possible or impossible but either way, HHH does
>> not emulate the final "ret" isntruction.
>>
>>> Here it is actually doing this.
>>>
>>> _DDD()
>>> [0000219e] 55             push ebp
>>> [0000219f] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>> [000021a1] 689e210000     push 0000219e
>>> [000021a6] e843f4ffff     call 000015ee
>>> [000021ab] 83c404         add esp,+04
>>> [000021ae] 5d             pop ebp
>>> [000021af] c3             ret
>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [000021af]
>>>
>>> _main()
>>> [000021be] 55             push ebp
>>> [000021bf] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>> [000021c1] 689e210000     push 0000219e
>>> [000021c6] e823f4ffff     call 000015ee
>>> [000021cb] 83c404         add esp,+04
>>> [000021ce] 50             push eax
>>> [000021cf] 685f070000     push 0000075f
>>> [000021d4] e8a5e5ffff     call 0000077e
>>> [000021d9] 83c408         add esp,+08
>>> [000021dc] 33c0           xor eax,eax
>>> [000021de] 5d             pop ebp
>>> [000021df] c3             ret
>>> Size in bytes:(0034) [000021df]
>>>
>>>   machine   stack     stack     machine        assembly
>>>   address   address   data      code           language
>>>   ========  ========  ========  ============== =============
>>> [000021be][00103872][00000000] 55             push ebp
>>> [000021bf][00103872][00000000] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>> [000021c1][0010386e][0000219e] 689e210000     push 0000219e // push DDD
>>> [000021c6][0010386a][000021cb] e823f4ffff     call 000015ee // call HHH
>>> New slave_stack at:103916
>>>
>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:11391e
>>> [0000219e][0011390e][00113912] 55             push ebp
>>> [0000219f][0011390e][00113912] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>> [000021a1][0011390a][0000219e] 689e210000     push 0000219e // push DDD
>>> [000021a6][00113906][000021ab] e843f4ffff     call 000015ee // call HHH
>>>
>>> The following shows the result of HHH emulating
>>> itself emulating DDD. x86utm is a cooperative
>>> multi-tasking operating system.
>>>
>>> New slave_stack at:14e33e
>>> [0000219e][0015e336][0015e33a] 55             push ebp
>>> [0000219f][0015e336][0015e33a] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>> [000021a1][0015e332][0000219e] 689e210000     push 0000219e // push DDD
>>> [000021a6][0015e32e][000021ab] e843f4ffff     call 000015ee // call HHH
>>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>>>
>>> [000021cb][00103872][00000000] 83c404         add esp,+04
>>> [000021ce][0010386e][00000000] 50             push eax
>>> [000021cf][0010386a][0000075f] 685f070000     push 0000075f
>>> [000021d4][0010386a][0000075f] e8a5e5ffff     call 0000077e
>>> Input_Halts = 0
>>> [000021d9][00103872][00000000] 83c408         add esp,+08
>>> [000021dc][00103872][00000000] 33c0           xor eax,eax
>>> [000021de][00103876][00000018] 5d             pop ebp
>>> [000021df][0010387a][00000000] c3             ret
>>> Number of Instructions Executed(10069) == 150 Pages
>>
>> Apparently you said that the last "ret" is not acutally emulated but
>> only its emulation is emulated.
>>
>> Your trace lacks the indication of which lines are actually trace lines
>> and which are output lines from the emulated program that only look like
>> trace lines.
>>
> 
> You must use the machine addresses to see what code
> is being emulated. New slave_stack indicate that
> a new process context has been created. Code following
> that is being emulated.
> 
> New slave_stack at:14e33e indicates that HHH is
> about to emulate itself emulating DDD.
> 

But "New slave stack" isn't something an x86 instruction does at the 
instruction level

Thus, this is NOT the simulation you claimed, and thus doesn't prove any 
of your claims, t just shows you are just a stupid liar.

Now, if you want to claim a different type of simulation, then you need 
to define what HHH is.

Is is a correct simulator (to allow such a operation) at which point it 
CAN NOT (in ANY copy of it) abort its simulation.

Or is it possible just a partial simulation, in which case you trace is 
just incorrect, as you can't do that with partial simultors.