Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.quux.org!news.nk.ca!rocksolid2!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: mpsilvertone@yahoo.com (HarryLime)
Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: NastyGoon lifts a line
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 15:51:43 +0000
Organization: novaBBS
Message-ID: <47fe3e01d087339598a76abfd6cc7059@www.novabbs.com>
References: <c120480a19034181aef31ea4a03df8d8@www.novabbs.com> <2a4af4ec834eef3f54981b740292339e@www.novabbs.com> <43d39b4a1c89d7225266eba011c12000@www.novabbs.com> <07ab66c1c01e208a4fc1ab071e658db5@www.novabbs.com> <9311088ba61ebc6586521a7b24f47801@www.novabbs.com> <36c080c524f1293340f607e197eddacf@www.novabbs.com> <912c53b9143f2a3aca65c832a9a70fb5@www.novabbs.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: i2pn2.org;
	logging-data="4061951"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org";
	posting-account="9yNNWN6S3jCL2bQghupeZ7yt9QQF3aIiWb2guQimaIw";
User-Agent: Rocksolid Light
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0
X-Rslight-Site: $2y$10$dTuA2z6s8dQPg2EBVhaAyeNbxou1WRXIsFY5kIDhqgBWsZbMBBEm.
X-Rslight-Posting-User: e04a750cbe04de725ce24a46bcc3953c76236e3b

On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 13:37:42 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 4:00:34 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 23:55:05 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 16:44:20 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 5:38:14 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 1:38:39 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments
>>>>>>> On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
>>>>>>> "HarryLime" wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
>>>>>>>> intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here.
>>>>>>>> Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler."  And I
>>>>>>>> was right in doing so.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
>>>>>>>> Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's poetry of the highest quality.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line
>>>>>>> of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be
>>>>>>> something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> True, Robert Creeley wrote a pretty good line, obviously Nancy Gene
>>>>>> agrees.
>>>>>
>>>>> After being forced to read and think about the two opening lines
>>>>> repeatedly the past few days, I have to say that Creeley's metaphor
>>>>> makes sense and NG's, no matter how "poetical" HarryLiar finds it, does
>>>>> not.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the newspapers are "unread", it makes sense that they'd "pile up."
>>>>> You save the paper you didn't have time to read today, hoping you'll
>>>>> have time to read it tomorrow; then you don't have time tomorrow and you
>>>>> now have two unread papers; then three the next day; four the next; so
>>>>> on. Eventually you'll end up with piles of newspapers that you're hoping
>>>>> to read some day when you have the time.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's a great metaphor; the unread newspapers represent all the things
>>>>> one doesn't get to do in a day, all the unfinished business that just
>>>>> keeps piling up and piling up.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, George, that's Creeley's simile.  [Please note the difference
>>>> between "simile" and "metaphor."]
>>>
>>> No, HarryLiar. Creeley's simile compared how "The days pile up" with how
>>> "unread newspapers" pile up (which makes sense, as unread newspapers do
>>> pile up if one has no time to read them).
>>>
>>> If (as I read him) he's using "The days" to represent "all the things
>>> one doesn't get to do in a day, all the unfinished business," that is
>>> not a simile. It's a differet literary device entirely.
>>
>> Since you refuse to reprint the poem, or provide a link to it, you can't
>> fault me for basing my reading on a single, out of context line.
>
> Actually, HarryLiar, we're now talking about my reading of the line -
> "the unread newspapers represent all the things one doesn't get to do in
> a day, all the unfinished business that just keeps piling up and piling
> up" and your response" which I called a "great metaphor" and your
> response: "Yes, George, that's Creeley's simile.  [Please note the
> difference
> between "simile" and "metaphor."]
>
> Using "the days" to represent "unfinished business" is not a simile.
> It's symbolism, or (if you'd like to quibble) metonymy.

I believe that I first learned about similes in the 3rd Grade.  A simile
was defined as a comparison between two seemingly different things (A is
like B).

I've never had any interest in labeling the various forms, styles,
components, etc., of poetry.  I know that PJR and Horatio used to do
that quite a bit, and that you were always eager to join in -- only to
be ignored.  It always struck me as an exercise in pointlessness. 
Poetry isn't about the labels one can attach to it, or the categories
one can pigeonhole it into.

NancyGene's line is great regardless of whether it's a simile, metaphor,
or an example of symbolism.

>>>> NancyGene is making a totally different simile than Creeley.  Piled
>>>> newspapers are being compared to two very different things.
>>>
>>>> Yes, HarryLiar; we know that much.
>
>>>> NastyGoon is comparing how "Yesterdays stack up" with how "read
>>>> newspapers" stack up (which doesn't make sense, because read newspapers
>>>> don't stack up on their own; they go into the recycling bin and get
>>>> thrown away).
>>>
>>>>> But why would NG, or anyone, save all the newspapers they have already
>>>>> read; why would those "stack up"? Just maybe they have a bird and need
>>>>> to line the bottom of its cage, but they wouldn't have to save every
>>>>> single newspapers for that; they can save the amount they think they
>>>>> need, and throw the rest away. But since we can't read the poem, just
>>>>> the two lines HarryLiar keeps slurping, who knows why they think people
>>>>> save all the newspapers they've already read?
>>>>
>>>> As I previously explained to you, the newspapers in NancyGene's simile
>>>> represent "Yesterdays," or *Memories.*
>>>
>>> That is also not a simile. If NastyGoon had said in the poem "Yesterdays
>>> are like memories" that would be have been a simile, but they did not.
>>> In your reading, they are also using a different literary device.
>>
>> And just what literary device is that?
>
> "Symbolism" sounds good to me.

It doesn't to me.

A symbol is the substitution of one thing for another.  Using
"Yesterdays" to represent "Memories" is closer to being a symbol (it's
actually a metaphor) than "Yesterdays... (are) like ... read newspapers"
(which I still think is a simile).


>>>> If you haven't read the
>>>> newspaper, you have no memory of its contents.
>>>
>>> So you're saying that using "Yesterdays" to mean "memories" makes sense;
>>> but we're discussing their simile, not that literary device.
>>
>> Are you now going to prattle on about some unnamed literary device
>> (which you have no intention of identifying)?
>
> I just identified it, in both poems, HarryLiar.

How can you accuse me of lying it my previous post, when you just
identified it (incorrectly, IMHO) in this one?

> Now, as for their
> similes, both are virtualy identical: both compare days ("The days" in
> one, "Yesterdays" in the other) to newspapers {"unread" in one, "read"
> in the other).

But the days are used to represent *different things* in each.

Yesterdays = Memories vs Days = Increments of Time.

Are you really so dense as to be incapable of seeing past the specific
words to recognize their metaphorical (or, if you must, symbolic)
meanings?

>>>> The speaker in
>>>> NancyGene's poem feels as if they are unable to escape from their
>>>> memories, so the *read* newspapers keep piling up -- becoming more
>>>> oppressive with each passing day.
>>>
>>> Which is not a good simile, as I said, because "read newspapers" do not
>>> normally stack up that way
>>
>> Technically, newspapers don't stack up stack up any way by themselves;
>> they are stacked up by others.
>
> That's a stupid quibble; of course stacks of newspapers are made by
> people. Normally, people do not stack up the newspapers they've alread
> read.

It is neither stupid, nor quibbling, George. I was demonstrating how one
can change the meaning of a sentence by examining it out of context
(something which you do in practically every post).  According to your
sentence, the newspapers have taken on a life of their own and are
capable of movement (piling themselves in stacks).

========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========