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From: will.dockery@gmail.com (W.Dockery)
Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: The Lime sock on Allen Ginsberg and NAMBLA
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 19:38:47 +0000
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HarryLime wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:
>
>>>>>>> I am publishing an AAPC poetry journal featuring award-winning poets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you say vanity press?
>>>>>
>>>>> A vanity press charges a "reading" or "submission" fee.
>>>>
>>>> Do you pay in contributors copies?
>>>
>>> Almost.  I don't receive any money for them.  They're sold at cost.

Sure sounds like vanity press to me.

>> So... no.
>>
>>>>>>>>> After Jim and Stephan became engaged in a prolonged flamewar, both on
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> off the Sampler, the second thing you did was start flooding the group
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> a nasty, libelous document that NG had written.
>
>>>>>> Oh yes, the last resort, flood the newsgroup with your lies and
>>>>>> misrepresentations.
>
>>>> George Dance saw it differently.
>
>>>>>>>> Grim times for the poetry newsgroup indeed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pick didn't belong here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's no guidelines on who we "allow" to be here.
>>>>>>
>>>> Stephan Pickering knew poetry and made many good poetry posts.
>>>>
>>>> Pretty good poetry, as I recall.
>>>>
>>>> Stephan Pickering has written some interesting poems over the
>>>>>> years.
>
>>>>>>>>> The third thing you did, a month or so of that, when Jim and Stephan
>>>>>>>>> were thoroughly
>>>>>>>>> engaged with each other, you went deep diving outside the group for
>>>>>>>>> information on NAMBLA, and found a quotation from Allan Ginsberg
>>>>>>>>> ("I have never had sex with anyone under 15"
>>>>
>>>> The youngest sex partner Allen Ginsberg is known to have was the 18-19
>>>> year old man
>
>> Can you link to these alleged sources?
>
>> And later it turns out the youngest sex partner Allen Ginsberg is known
>> to have was an 18-19 year old man.

An interview with the young man was reposted elsewhere on the poetry
newsgroups.

>> Can you link to any real evidence of this?
>
> See above.

Don you have a link?

>>>> No, he was 18 and then turned 19.
>>>>
>>>>> It depends on the source.
>>
>> Unless something new has surfaced, there's zero evidence.
>
> IIRC, Ginsberg tacitly admitted it in one or more interviews.

Non that I've ever read, but I haven't read every interview with Allen
Ginsberg.

Can you post the link to that interview?

>>>> There's an interview with the fellow, I don't remember his name right
>>>> now.

The interview was reposted in another thread, the person was 18-19 years
old and he was the one who pursued Allen Ginsberg, not the other way
around.

>>>> posting here, calling Ginsberg a "pedophile" (or predator);
>>
>> Which, from the evidence, wasn't true, as shown above.
>>
>> Again, more on this later.
>
>>>  and then
>>> when others objected to that (like Stephan, Will, or myself), you began
>>> calling those people "pedophiles" as well.
>>>
>>> That's when the bullshit from Pendragon began to get heavy.
>
>>> Most likely Jim had condemned Ginsberg as
>>> a child molester
>
>> Which wasn't actually true, by all evidence.
>>
>> Not statements but actual evidence.
>>
>> I looked twenty years ago and found no actual evidence, more on this
>> later.
>
>>>>> Ginsberg was a supporter and member of the North American Man/Boy Love
>>>>> Association (NAMBLA), a pedophilia and pederasty advocacy organization
>>>>> in the United States that works to abolish age of consent laws and
>>>>> legalize sexual relations between adults and children.[124][citation
>>>>> needed] Saying that he joined the organization "in defense of free
>>>>> speech",[125] Ginsberg stated: "Attacks on NAMBLA stink of politics,
>>>>> witchhunting for profit, humorlessness, vanity, anger and ignorance ...
>>>>> I'm a member of NAMBLA because I love boys too—everybody does, who has a
>>>>> little humanity".[126] In 1994, Ginsberg appeared in a documentary on
>>>>> NAMBLA called Chicken Hawk: Men Who Love Boys (playing on the gay male
>>>>> slang term 'chickenhawk'), in which he read a "graphic ode to
>>>>> youth".[124] He read his poem "Sweet Boy, Gimme Yr Ass" from the book
>>>>> Mind Breaths.[127]
>>
>> More on this later, see below.
>
>>> In her 2002 book Heartbreak, Andrea Dworkin claimed Ginsberg had
>>> ulterior motives
>
>> There was a bitter feud between Ginsberg and this person, I don't
>> remember the details but Dworkin was said to have no evidence that
>> Ginsberg had actually made those statements.
>
>> I'll have to research this again, since I haven't read the details in
>> over twenty years.
>
> The general consensus is that Ginsberg was openly gay, and openly
> attracted to underage boys.  Whether he actually had sex with them is
> unknown

The youngest known sex partner Allen Ginsberg had was 18-19 years old
and the person stated in the interview that he pursued Allen Ginsberg,
it wasn't Ginsberg's idea.

>>> and Pickering (who worshipped Ginsberg) spazzed.
>
>> That is a fair summary of what I just said, though you left out that you
>> (and Jim)
>> were calling Stephan a child molester as well. No one appreciates being
>> called names like that by cowardly trolls on the internet.
>>
>> Which led to Tit for Tat behavior over time.
>
>> At that point Pendragon and Senetto were trying any dirty trick to drive
>> Stephan Pickering away from this newsgroup.
>>
>> And so it goes.
>>
>> I doubt you'll argue this, Pendragon, since you once bragged about doing
>> this in the 1950s music group.
>
> I bragged about torturing the living bejeezus out of PhillyGuy for fun
> and amusement.  I never made up anything to win an argument there.

In what way did you "torture" this Philly Guy?