Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.quux.org!news.nk.ca!rocksolid2!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: will.dockery@gmail.com (W.Dockery)
Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: The Psycho-epistemolgy of MMP
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2025 16:57:56 +0000
Organization: novaBBS
Message-ID: <55ee94fc3aba98ef6e889dca661de2b6@www.novabbs.com>
References: <3410e67b167ee373e49c66f99f295981@www.novabbs.com> <8421131f9943baf3d06ccd3573e3e696@www.novabbs.com> <45d38853297e3885b54c3e0149a19062@www.novabbs.com> <621fd63d5582d747134dc1195cbddfba@www.novabbs.com> <aeea76d1b27af1f40b0dbc6045057628@www.novabbs.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: i2pn2.org;
	logging-data="2360503"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org";
	posting-account="Vf9CM7g99yqfGvzEHTw0bhrjcIfvzYBBhUuRma0rLuQ";
User-Agent: Rocksolid Light
X-Rslight-Posting-User: acd0b3e3614eaa6f47211734e4cbca3bfd42bebc
X-Rslight-Site: $2y$10$B9B7UCU/xuWdiOJlXKPSSu/7SByPSpVM8N6SBFHcARkC4lP8f9ur.
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0

On Sun, 2 Feb 2025 5:55:00 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:

> On Sun, 2 Feb 2025 2:28:41 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 1 Feb 2025 20:58:37 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 13:45:51 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 4:07:04 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> moved from
>>>>> https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=254114&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments#254114
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 16 Jan 2025 0:20:56 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> That's Michael Pendragon, always the Peter Keating styled second hander.
>>>>>
>>>>> Essentially we're in agreement; but I have to raise two non-essential
>>>>> points of disagreement. First, I would rather not refer to the subject
>>>>> as "Pendragon." The subject's real name is unknown; "Michael Pendragon"
>>>>> is just one of his socks, albeit the most prolific one. I would prefer
>>>>> to refer to him as "MMP" (which doesn't mean you have to, of course, if
>>>>> you disagree).
>>>>>
>>>>> Second, I don't think that Peter Keating is the best 'type' to describe
>>>>> MMP in the novel. Both Keating and MMP are social metaphysicians - they
>>>>> think that reality is whatever people believe it is, the "consensus"
>>>>> view of reality. But so do half the novel. Where those two are different
>>>>> is that Keating is content to follow the consensus, while MMP believes
>>>>> he can actually control reality by controlling others' beliefs. That
>>>>> makes him more like two of Rand's other protagonists from that novel,
>>>>> Gail Wynand and Ellsworth Toohey. Which of those matches him best is
>>>>> still an open question.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Why does Michael Pendragon lie and misrepresent so much?
>>>>>
>>>>> MMP has told us he was abused as a boy, and I think that fact is key.
>>>>> Lying is one tactic children usually try at some point to escape
>>>>> punishment, and an abused child has all the more reason to keep at it ad
>>>>> learn how to do it successfully. Since MMP comes across as clever (at
>>>>> least 120 IQ), it is also fair to think that he was able to learn to lie
>>>>> successfully. So it is fair to conclude that he did learn to lie
>>>>> successfully, and escape punishment, more than once.
>>>>>
>>>>> While no one can blame a child in that position for lying, his doing so
>>>>> successfully would be giving him the wrong feedback, making him think
>>>>> that he actually was changing reality by changing his parents' beliefs -
>>>>> telling him that in fact reality was whatever one wanted it to be, and
>>>>> that he could be that one.
>>>>>
>>>>> More later, but I wanted to get these two points on record quickly.
>>>>
>>>> Interesting, I'm starting to think both Harry Lime and Jim Senetto were
>>>> actually projecting in their critiques of "My Father's House."
>>>
>>> I can imagine that for the Lime sock (MMP). As far as his Chimp, though,
>>> I don't want to leap to that conclusion for him. Remember, he is the
>>> less intelligent of the two, and in consequence he just believes and
>>> says whatever MMP tells him to. That could be all he was doing in those
>>> threads as well.
>
>> It seems that Senetto took the lead in attempting to drive Stephan
>> Pickering from the newsgroup though, but that may have been fueled by
>> Senetto's obvious Antisemitism.
>
> Thanks for reminding me. It was actually MMP who did that by bringing
> NAMBLA to the group. That triggered Jim, just the way MFH triggered him
> after he was told that it was really about child molesting.

Oh yes, the old Allen Ginsberg joined NAMBLA thing which then gave Jim
Senetto and excuse to vent his anti Semitic feelings against Stephan
Pickering.