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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Sufficient knowledge of C proves that DD specifies
 non-terminating behavior to HHH
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2025 20:08:09 -0500
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 2/16/25 5:00 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 2/16/2025 2:16 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>> Op 16.feb.2025 om 13:58 schreef olcott:
>>> On 2/16/2025 3:44 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>> Op 15.feb.2025 om 20:21 schreef olcott:
>>>>> On 2/15/2025 2:06 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>> Op 14.feb.2025 om 22:18 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>> On 2/14/2025 8:01 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>> Op 14.feb.2025 om 13:48 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>> On 2/14/2025 3:53 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Op 14.feb.2025 om 01:12 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2025 8:47 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 13.feb.2025 om 13:31 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2025 3:16 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Wed, 12 Feb 2025 22:18:32 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/11/2025 2:05 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Tue, 11 Feb 2025 10:19:11 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/11/2025 9:23 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Mon, 10 Feb 2025 15:38:37 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2025 2:48 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Mon, 10 Feb 2025 08:46:21 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2025 6:52 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Mon, 10 Feb 2025 06:02:48 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2025 5:16 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 09 Feb 2025 13:54:39 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 1:33 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 20:04 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 12:54 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 18:00 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 10:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 16:18 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 2:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 07:10 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2025 3:54 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 08.feb.2025 om 15:47 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2025 3:57 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 08.feb.2025 om 06:53 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 7:27 PM, Richard Damon 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/25 8:12 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 5:56 PM, Richard 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/25 11:26 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 6:20 AM, Richard 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 10:02 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 8:21 PM, Richard 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 5:18 PM, olcott 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 1:51 PM, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 1:26 PM, olcott 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 10:52 AM, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bonita Montero
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which proves that HHH fails to make a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decision about DD's halting behaviour. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> methods (direct execution,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation by a world class simulator, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.) show
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that DD halts. But HHH fails to see 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. Everyone with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sufficient understanding of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> programming sees that HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not correctly programmed when it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aborts one cycle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before the simulation would end normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The execution trace only shows that HHH 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is unable to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complete its simulation, because HHH is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulate itself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It turns out that Olcott does not even 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simple proof that HHH produces false 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> negatives. HHH is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to simulate itself up to the normal 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> termination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, in other words, Olcott denies verified 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> facts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH generates false negatives, as is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verified in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>               int main() {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 return HHH(main);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>               }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but he denies it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He lacks the ability to accept simple 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verified facts, which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he tries to hide with a lot of irrelevant 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> words.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is a verified fact that main cannot 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly be correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by HHH until its normal termination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed, which proves that HHH is unable to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulate itself
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this was true then you could point out 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly where HHH is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH is supposed to be a decider, i.e. halt and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> return the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct value.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The directly executed HHH(DD) always halts and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> returns a correct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value as soon as it correctly determines that its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We were talking about HHH(HHH). If the outer HHH 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halts according
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to spec, so does the inner, because it is the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same. Therefore it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can’t report „non-halting” and be correct. If the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inner HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn’t halt, it is not a decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not going to ever talk about that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh goody, you’re never getting anywhere if you reject 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> corrections.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I reject infinite deflection away from the point. The 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolute
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> single-mined focus point is that DD correctly simulated 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by HHH cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That IS the point. DD does nothing else than call HHH.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since there is a 5% chance that the treatment I will have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next month
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will kill me and this treatment is my only good chance I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will totally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ignore anything that diverges from the point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok, I will wait a month then.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone that knows the C language sufficiently well knows
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that DD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed, which shows the limitation of HHH which makes that 
>>>>>>>>>>>> it cannot properly decide about its input, because  it must 
>>>>>>>>>>>> abort the correct simulation before it sees that the correct 
>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation terminates normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The correct simulation is only the one that it sees
>>>>>>>>>>> by definition. it maps ITS INPUT TO THE BEHAVIOR OF THIS INPUT.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If I close my eyes, so that I do not see the accident, I 
>>>>>>>>>> cannot claim that the accident did not happen. That is the 
>>>>>>>>>> reasoning of a 2 years old child.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> HHH(DD) maps the finite string input of DD to the behavior that 
>>>>>>>>> it specifies. This behavior does include DD repeatedly calling 
>>>>>>>>> HHH(DD)
>>>>>>>>> in recursive simulation that that cannot possibly terminate 
>>>>>>>>> normally.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Olcott is again dreaming of a HHH that does not abort. Dreams 
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