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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2024 15:41:34 +0000
Subject: Re: DDD correctly emulated by H0
Newsgroups: comp.theory
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From: Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2024 16:41:33 +0100
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On 25/06/2024 14:46, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> [ Followup-To: set ]
> 
> In comp.theory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 6/25/2024 4:22 AM, joes wrote:
>>> Am Sat, 22 Jun 2024 13:47:24 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>> On 6/22/2024 1:39 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>> Op 21.jun.2024 om 15:21 schreef olcott:
> 
>>>> When we stipulate that the only measure of a correct emulation is the
>>>> semantics of the x86 programming language then we see that when DDD is
>>>> correctly emulated by H0 that its call to H0(DDD) cannot possibly
>>>> return.
>>> Yes. Which is wrong, because H0 should terminate.
> 
> [ .... ]
> 
>> The call from DDD to H0(DDD) when DDD is correctly emulated
>> by H0 cannot possibly return.
> 
>> Until you acknowledge this is true, this is the
>> only thing that I am willing to talk to you about.
> 
> I think you are talking at cross purposes.  Joes's point is that H0
> should terminate because it's a decider.  You're saying that when H0 is
> "correctly" emulating, it won't terminate.  I don't recall seeing anybody
> arguing against that.

Hehe, everyone has an opinion on what PO is saying! :)

So here's mine:  I think PO is saying that when DDD is correctly *emulated* [not "correctly 
/emulating/"] then "it" will not return.

To be clear, that's saying that the /emulation/ does not get as far as the final return, i.e. outer 
H0 will stop emulating (aka "abort") without having emulated DDD's return statement.  PO has 
acknowledged that the outer H0 will return after aborting its emulation.

So what? I hear everyone asking.  So what indeed! The "behaviour" of a partial emulation is not the 
behaviour of the computation itself [trivially] and not what the HP is about. But PO then gets 
hopelessly muddled, thinking at least two wrong things:

1)  That DDD would /never/ have terminated in "1-oo steps of emulation", i.e. that DDD really 
doesn't halt, not simply that H0 aborted it before it returned.  (Thats muddling all the different 
examples of H in his head each with their own personalised (D,D) inputs into one single 
super-H/super-D.  Of course, the FIXED DDD under discussion /does/ in fact return in some finite 
number of steps.  H0 is also fixed and is coded in a way that aborts /before/ that number of steps 
is emulated.)

2)  PO knows that the /reason/ H0 decided to abort was that it matched his "infinite recursive 
emulation" pattern in the emulation trace - therefore he believes it's correct to decide non-halting 
because his pattern proves that.  (That's just Wrong, but PO really really really believes the 
pattern is sound, so that's the end of it.  He has no intention or capability of ever attempting to 
prove his rule is sound.)


Mike.