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From: will.dockery@gmail.com (W.Dockery)
Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: My Father's House / gjd (for new comments)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2025 22:11:08 +0000
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On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 21:53:21 +0000, HarryLime wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 21:36:58 +0000, Will Dockery wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 Feb 2025 8:50:21 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 11:02:16 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 0:44:06 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 17:11:19 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 18:28:12 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 14:12:44 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 20:15:36 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 19:31:54 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My Father's House
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is my father's house, although
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They said it would be quite all right
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To take a drive to see it now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I helped, though I was only six.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be so many other places.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where I would work the summers through,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While watching my friends run and play
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To read or play alone, and then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here it is, MFH.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for reposting this poem of mine, Will. While it's true that it
>>>>>>>>>>>> has been discussed a lot over the years, it also true that at least one
>>>>>>>>>>>> person wants to discuss it now; and this would be the appropriate place
>>>>>>>>>>>> to move those comments, rather than leaving them scattered all over the
>>>>>>>>>>>> group. So let's start with this one:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
>>>>>>>>>>>> "HarryLime" wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You wrote a "mostly autobiographical" poem detailing the abuses you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> suffered as a child, George.  And you're demonstrating your pathological
>>>>>>>>>>>>> obsession with lying in your trio of denials, listed above.
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=15801&group=rec.arts.poems
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> HarryLiar has manufactured yet another fake quote; I have never called
>>>>>>>>>>>> this poem "mostly autobiographical" or autobiographical in many ways. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> have distinctly told him in the past that, while some of the speaker's
>>>>>>>>>>>> memories were based on my own childhood experiences, not all of them
>>>>>>>>>>>> were; I was using them in a work of creative fiction, not an
>>>>>>>>>>>> autobiography of any kind. So he lied and made up a fake quote to
>>>>>>>>>>>> support his lie.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I haven't the time to go searching for the exact quote, but you had
>>>>>>>>>>> initially maintained that it was "mostly autobiographical" or "mostly
>>>>>>>>>>> based on your childhood," or similar words expressing the same thing.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you don't have time, get your NastyGoon to search for it. In this
>>>>>>>>>> case I have to call your bullshit. You claimed the poem was
>>>>>>>>>> "autobiographical", and I tried to explain to you the difference between
>>>>>>>>>> creative literature and autobiography - repeatedly. You believe it's
>>>>>>>>>> autobiographical because you said it was autobiographical, and for no
>>>>>>>>>> other reason.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> George, George, George... no autobiography is 100% accurate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As I've told you before, I don't think the difference between creative
>>>>>>>> literature and autobiography is merely one of "accuracy." The difference
>>>>>>>> is that in the latter one is trying to be as accurate and comprehensive
>>>>>>>> as possible: to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
>>>>>>>> truth. Whereas in the former, one is selectively recreating an
>>>>>>>> experience, using experiences that reinforce the story.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which has little to no bearing on one's reading a poem as as
>>>>>>> psychoanalytical analysis of its author.  An autobiography would
>>>>>>> invariably be colored by its author's emotional feelings, and
>>>>>>> selectively limited by their choices as to what to include, and how to
>>>>>>> present it if included.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Df course a biographer is going to be selective; who would want to read
>>>>>> a biography that included an account of every dump their subject took in
>>>>>> his life? The difference is that a biographer limits (or should limit)
>>>>>> what they include to what actually happened to the subject, while a
>>>>>> creative work (which has a made-up subject (has no such restraint).
>>>>>
>>>>> You're trying to change the terms, in order to change the meanings,
>>>>> George.
>>>>>
>>>>> How many times do I have to tell you that high school debate team
>>>>> tactics are not going to work here?
>>>>>
>>>>> You have stated, repeatedly, that you poem was based for the most part
>>>>> on your own childhood.  The unnamed narrator may not be George Dance,
>>>>> but the events he is describing in the flashback portion of the poem are
>>>>> similar to your own childhood experiences.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your poem is, therefore, at least semi-autobiographical.
>>>>>
>>>>> A semi-autobiographical poem can still contain purely fictional elements
>>>>> (such as the narrator's psychiatric care, his revisiting his childhood
>>>>> home, etc.), but it is much more grounded in reality than your
>>>>> description of "creative fiction," which "has a made-up subject" and "no
>>>>> such restraint (as having to limit itself to what really happened to its
>>>>> subject).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The only difference is that in an autobiography, the author is
>>>>>>> (supposedly) attempting to be unbiased, where as in creative literature,
>>>>>>> the author is allowing his biases to take center stage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, that's not a difference. Biographies (including autobiographies) can
>>>>>> reflect their author's prejudices; one wouldn't expect a biography of
>>>>>> Hitler or Amin to be "unbiased" or try for equal balance. The
>>>>>> difference, to repeat, is that a biographer is (or should be) limited to
>>>>>> real, verifiable events - it's an account of what really happened -
>>>>>> whereas a work of creative literature has no such restraint.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I am not calling your poem autobiographical, George.  I am calling
>>>>> it "semi-autobiographical."  There is a difference between the two, as
>>>>> well.  An autobiographical poem would have to be based entirely on fact.
>>>>>  A semi-autobiographical poem would only have to be partially based on
>>>>> fact.  Since your poem is partially based on fact, it is a
>>>>> semi-autobiographical work.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Both provide
>>>>>>> glimpses into the author as a person; and some would argue that creative
>>>>>>> literature provides a deeper glimpse as it is allowing the reader to
>>>>>>> share in the author's emotional responses to their experiences (whereas
>>>>>>> the former is merely relating said experiences, with the cold, clinical
>>>>>>> detachment of a reporter).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure, every literary work provides some glimpse into the author. That
>>>>>> does not mean that every literary work is a "biography" of someone.
>>>>>
>>>>> I haven't even so much as hinted that it would.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm saying that any fictional work is going to be partially
>>>>> *autobiographical.*  "The Simple Man" is a fictional story that I wrote
>>>>> that is based on a dream that I had.  Since I had the dream, the story
>>>>> provides the reader with a glimpse into my subconscious.  "Beyond the
>>>>> Veil" is also partially autobiographical, in that the speaker's
>>>>> drug-induced hallucinations are based upon my own.  Both stories are
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