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From: mpsilvertone@yahoo.com (HarryLime)
Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: The Psycho-epistemolgy of MMP
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2025 18:52:11 +0000
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On Tue, 4 Feb 2025 16:03:04 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:

> On Tue, 4 Feb 2025 15:29:48 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 4 Feb 2025 11:47:59 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 20:25:03 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 19:31:19 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 2 Feb 2025 1:56:45 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain aka
>>>>> "HarryLime" wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 1 Feb 2025 23:24:09 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 1 Feb 2025 5:20:24 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 23:38:44 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 4:07:04 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>>>>> For now I think of him as the Toohey type, but that could just be my
>>>>>>>>> personal bias. The difference being that: Wynand was a Nietzschean; he
>>>>>>>>> just wanted the power to control reality for itself, without any regard
>>>>>>>>> for how it was used; while Toohey did have an agenda, a malevolent one
>>>>>>>>> of stamping out and destroying all independent thought and creativity.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hmm... as a publisher, I foster creativity -- providing other poets with
>>>>>>>> a forum in which to showcase their works.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doesn't help; I'm sure that both Wynand and Toohey would have said they
>>>>>>> were "fostering creativity." As a publisher, Wynand employed several
>>>>>>> columnists who could write what they wanted -- unless they wrote
>>>>>>> something he didn't like, in which case he'd "ban" (fire) them. That
>>>>>>> last sounds like you. While Toohey's war on independent thought and
>>>>>>> creativity was to assemble a collective of mediocre talents and promote
>>>>>>> the hell out of them. That also sounds like you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm afraid the question is still unresolved, and you haven't done a
>>>>>>> thing to help resolve it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are devaluing Wynand.  Wynand's motivations were originally noble
>>>>>> (in Ayn Rand's view), but he became corrupted (or, rather, compromised)
>>>>>> over time.  Once having established a position of wealth and power, he
>>>>>> wanted to hold onto it, and was willing to compromise his ethics in
>>>>>> order to do so.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wyand's motivations were never "noble". He was a Nietzschean, whose only
>>>>> motivation was power; he wanted to "run things." Not power to do
>>>>> anything, but simply power in itself; while his newspaper ran periodic
>>>>> "crusades" (like the one to destroy Roark), Wynand himself didn't care
>>>>> about them. While he did have some things he valued in his private life,
>>>>> he kept that strictly hidden away. they did not motivate his public
>>>>> life; and there is no indication in the book that he had any ethics at
>>>>> all.
>>>>
>>>> Hmm...
>>>>
>>>> I just rewatched the movie a year or so ago, and so am more familiar
>>>> with that version of Wynand.
>>>>
>>>> I just googled "gail wynand character overview" to see if you the book
>>>> version was different, and here's the first result that came up:
>>>>
>>>> "Like Roark, Wynand has extraordinary capabilities and energy, but
>>>> unlike Roark he lets the world corrupt him. When we first meet Wynand,
>>>> he is entirely a man of the outside world, exclusively involved with
>>>> society and its interests. His youthful idealism has been crushed by the
>>>> world's cynicism."
>>>>
>>>> That's pretty close to my description of him above.
>>>
>>> I'm glad you're googling.
>>
>> Of course I am.
>>
>> If I'm presented with information that conflicts with my current
>> understanding of a given topic, I fact check/research to determine
>> whether the new information  or my current understanding is incorrect.
>>
>>> The only thing the descriptions have in common
>>> is that they're sympathetic to Wynand (which makes sense, since Rand
>>> made him a sympathetic character. The difference is that the analysis
>>> pointe out that Wynand is thoroughly corrupt, while you insist on seeing
>>> him as "noble" and having "principles" and "ethics" though there's no
>>> evidence of that. Like Toohey (and you) Wynand presents as exclusively a
>>> "creature of the outside world," without any visible self.
>>
>> I suggest that you reread the analysis.  It says that "His youthful
>> idealism has been crushed by the world's cynicism."  Generally, one's
>> youthful idealism is a pure representation of their basic values -- it's
>> who they see themselves as (often in an overly idealized or romanticized
>> form).  This is the nobility at the heart of Gail Wynand -- much as Sir
>> Galahad represents the youthful, untainted nobility of Dorian Gray.
>>
>> When examining The Fountainhead, one should also bear in mind that the
>> protagonist of the book is Dominique Francon (a literary stand-in for
>> Rand), and that Francon/Rand would not be married to a man who had no
>> redeeming characteristics.
>>
>>
>>> (Later we learn that he does have a self - symbolized by his private art
>>> gallery - but the world is never allowed to see it. Once he finally does
>>> come public with him, he
>>
>> You've broken off in mid-sentence again, George.  I'm therefore unable
>> to determine what point you were attempting to make.
>>
>> Wynand was inspired by William Randolph Hearst, who was also the
>> inspiration for Citizen Kane -- and the similarities between Wynand and
>> Kane are so strong that they might as well be the same character (which
>> they, in fact are; both having been based on the same real life person.)
>>  Kane's youthful idealism (which is also corrupted over the course of
>> his life) was expressed in his newspaper's manifesto, which promised to
>> provide the public with an honest daily newspaper,
>> to use the press to expose corruption in government, business, and
>> politics;
>> to be a champion for the rights of citizens and human beings; and to
>> campaign for the poor and underprivileged.
>>
>> Wynand/Hearst/Kane all share the same noble principles, and all equally
>> fall victim to corruption -- with Wynand alone finding redemption.
>>
>>
>>>> Perhaps you're due for a "refresher" read of Rand's book.
>>>
>>> Or perhaps I should watch the movie, or, even better, google. :)
>>
>> Don't snigger too much about the movie, George.  The screenplay was
>> written by Ayn Rand, who also oversaw the film's production, and whose
>> contract stipulated that not one word of her screenplay could be altered
>> or removed.  IOW: The film version is just as much Ayn Rand's vision as
>> is the book upon which it was based.  Arguably, it is even moreso, as
>> any differences from the book would represent changes in Rand's
>> perceptions/beliefs.
>>
>>
>>>>>> This is opposed to Roark, who is willing to risk
>>>>>> everything he owns, and all of the progress he has made in the hierarchy
>>>>>> of his chosen field, to be true to his personal values.
>>>>>
>>>>> The difference between them is not whether they were true to their
>>>>> values, but what values they were true to. Roark valued creativity,
>>>>> doing things; Wynand valued having power, "running things" and the
>>>>> people who did them.
>>>
>>>> Again, that was not my reading (which the internet interpretation
>>>> confirms).
>>>
>>> No, the quote you googled does not confirm that. According to your
>>> googled quote, Wynand was already thoroughly corrupted "by the time we
>>> met him" in the novel.
>>
>> LOL!  Is that what you're harping on?
>>
>> His past is part of his character.  You can't dismiss a character's
>> backstory just because it happens outside of the narrative's timeframe.
>>
>> As you're a writer, I can't believe that I'm having to explain this to
>> you.
>>
>>
>>>> You don't seem to be getting the full picture of Wynand's character --
>>>> but then you *always* recast everything in the simplest of
>>>> black-and-white terms.
>>>
>>> I am getting that you identify with Wynand.
>>
>> And, once again, you're mistaken.
>>
>> You should really stop trying to read things into my statements.  I
>> choose my words carefully, and say exactly what I mean.
>>
>> I do not identify with Wynand in the least.  Wynand is everything that I
>> am not: rich, self-made, successful, powerful, dependent upon public
>> acceptance, and willing to compromise his ideals.
>>
>> I do, however, *understand* the fictional character better than you, as
>> your understanding of both Rand and Nietzsche is faulty, and you seem
>> incapable of grasping any concept in its full complexity, having to
>> pigeonhole it into simplistic, black and white components that often
>> undermine its original intent.
>>
>>
>>> So it's fair for us to
>>> identify you with him; the thoroughly corrupted power seeker - not
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