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From: will.dockery@gmail.com (W.Dockery)
Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: Ginsberg's Rorschach poetry
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 18:36:26 +0000
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On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 20:37:17 +0000, HarryLime wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 20:27:34 +0000, Will Dockery wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 18:22:57 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 16:11:37 +0000, Will-Dockery wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Victor H. wrote:
>>>>> Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 9:27:52 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Allen Ginsberg's poem shows no pedophilia as far as I can tell.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What you claim to see in the poem seems to be from your own imagination,
>>>> Pendragon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Says the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, says several legitimate sources, which day that "Please
>>>> Master" was written by Allen Ginsberg for Neal Cassady, a grown man.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HTH and HAND.
>>>>>
>>>>> Did Pendragon ever admit he was wrong....?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You know Pendragon never admits when he's wrong.
>>>
>>> It doesn't matter if the poem was written for Neal Cassady (a man
>>> roughly 1/3 Ginsberg's age),
>>
>> You're wrong about Cassady's age.
>>
>> See below.
>>
>> as nothing in the actual poems specifies
>>> this.
>>>
>>> IIRC, the poem was a sexually explicit depiction of a homosexual Dom-Sub
>>> BDSM session, presented in a strikingly crude manner, and is not
>>> something I have any desire to reread.  I am not being prudish or
>>> anything; I just don't find the topic interesting.
>>>
>>> The "please, Master" exchanges between the Dom and Sub in the poem's
>>> monologue, are (IMHO intentionally) reminiscent of an apprentice (a boy
>>> aged 10-16) and a much older master craftsman in a given art or trade.
>>> This recasts the narrative, at least on one level, as a depiction of
>>> Man-Boy sex.
>>>
>>> --
>>
>> I haven't looked in a while but Neal Cassady was almost the same age as
>> Allen Ginsberg and Jack Kerouac.
>>
>> You should fact check a little better, Harry.
>
> I've no interest in Beat poets, and even less in who they fucked.
>
> The implications of adult-child/master-apprentice sex in the poem remain
> the same regardless of who inspired it.
>
> --

The main point is to correct your error on attempting to claim that Neal
Cassady was one third Allen Ginsberg's age, which is completely untrue
since they were both born in 1926.

https://www.beatdom.com/many-loves/