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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2024 22:35:42 -0400
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On 6/10/2024 2:34 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>> On 6/9/2024 1:05 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>> john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 13:28:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
>>>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
>>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Story-Heroism-Disaster-Space/dp/198217661X
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is a very well researched and written book, and a sad, ghastly
>>>>>> story.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It reminds me that humans have no purpose in space but to die.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course most folks here don’t really think that we have any purpose here
>>>>> either.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>>
>>>> Whatever our purpose, killing astronauts probably doesn't help.
>>>>
>>>> Spending hundreds of billions on spam-in-a-can is a waste of resources
>>>> that could truly help.
>>>>
>>>> The book is fascinating. The fatheads that decided to launch cared
>>>> about power, money, and politics. The investigations after the
>>>> disaster, the same. A few very brave engineers runined their careers
>>>> to literally shout the truth. And Richard Feynman, who knew he was
>>>> dying of cancer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sounds like an expanded rehash of the presidential commission report.  For
>>> the other side of the story, I highly recommend Diane Vaughan’s “The
>>> Challenger Launch Decision”.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>
>>
>> I think it's less about any particular individual's greed or will to
>> power but  more about the dangers of formal "processes" in large
>> organizations which have become so large and ossified that the processes
>> become circular and self-referential.
>>
>> In some particularly idiotic cases the processes don't have to become
>> particularly large or self-referential to cause disaster, the classic
>> "Well the designer signed off on the modifications to the plans so that
>> means they reviewed them and they're safe for the contractor to
>> implement.." "Wait, the designer signed off on them because they thought
>> the contractor had reviewed them...didn't they?" has definitely cost
>> lives before, and probably will again
>>
>>
>>
> 
> Nah, it was much more careful and conscientious than that, and so even more
> tragic.
> 
> Vaughan was expecting to find misconduct and evil capitalism, but her
> research showed the opposite. She’s an honest and intelligent woman, so she
> presented what she found in a compelling way, despite it being sociology.
> ;)
> 
> Folks like that don’t grow on trees, which is why I recommend the book so
> highly.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Phil Hobbs
> 

" In retelling how the decision unfolded through the eyes of the 
managers and the engineers, Vaughan uncovers an incremental descent into 
poor judgment, supported by a culture of high-risk technology. She 
reveals how and why NASA insiders, when repeatedly faced with evidence 
that something was wrong, normalized the deviance so that it became 
acceptable to them."

I guess I'm not grasping from the summary of the Vaughan book how its 
conclusions greatly differ from the conclusions of Feynman et al.

Surely "normalization of deviance" counts as "misconduct" of some fashion.

As for "evil capitalism" that seems like a strange thing to look for in 
the Shuttle program given that IIRC it's one of those projects that's 
pointed to as a quintessential example of a government make-work project.

It surely made some paydays for some contractors but they were mostly 
companies like Thiokol, Rockwell and NAA who were heavily into the 
military-industrial pie to begin with. The design was compromised from 
the start due to DOD requirements for a thousand miles of crossrange for 
once-around polar missions to scare the Soviets, which it likely did, 
but it made a lousy space freighter or pure science vessel.

Under Lord Musk's guidance spaceflight has likely never been more 
profitable, or more generally uninteresting to the public-at-large.