Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 17:30:30 +1000
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Subject: Re: Avoid treating the stack as an array [Re: "Back & Forth" is
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From: dxf <dxforth@gmail.com>
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On 18/09/2024 3:39 pm, Paul Rubin wrote:
> dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> writes:
>> ...Moore has never changed his position, switched his tune, introduced
>> locals and mega-compilers - as the latter do today in an attempt to
>> maintain the interest, maintain a following.
> 
> Weren't we just quibbling about small (few percent) efficency
> differences between using locals and using stack words?  You get far
> greater efficiency gains by using optimizing compilers.  If you feel
> like the optimizing compiler is needless bloat and want to use an
> interpreter instead, that's fine, it just means that (like most of us),
> you've found that code speed isn't that important for whatever you're
> doing.  Stephen Pelc posted a few days ago that in the past decade, his
> customers have stopped asking for faster code.
> 
> I think that is a better takeaway than "well we can give up the
> optimizing compiler, because using stack words instead of locals
> recovers a few percent of the lost speed".

I think we're retreading old ground.  Orders of 30% reduction in code
size were in respect of optimizing compilers (VFX).  It's consistently
the case.  There may be less to gain for floating point but even there
locals don't have much over globals.  Can't speak for MPE customers
but neither can I ignore what I see.  I can assure you I don't find
using stack operators a burden.  Indeed I find them reassuring as it
puts me in control.  Forth is a niche language.  If there's success to
be had, it will be on its own merits and not ideas imported from other
languages.