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Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: john larkin <JL@gct.com> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design Subject: Re: New fusion power system test creates 300,000 degrees C plasma Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2024 18:57:58 -0800 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 106 Message-ID: <6ajnkj17gre1jpcs0cn6692d6kem6ficor@4ax.com> References: <vicmgh$j28b$1@solani.org> <vid5og$17b08$1@dont-email.me> <1r3svpl.148oh3818kksy4N%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> <vidafk$18c6s$1@dont-email.me> <1r3t0yh.1en723hd56invN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> <vidf2k$1933l$1@dont-email.me> <1r3tx4d.i621141x40wlcN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> <vieqs4$1lb23$2@dont-email.me> <uohmkj55an5qsvsdmbj1agobke839p65na@4ax.com> <vifrbt$1tvm0$1@dont-email.me> <262nkj16um51ookln94nvfun2j2e6i8p0l@4ax.com> <vig4sj$1voo8$1@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2024 03:58:02 +0100 (CET) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="6b8552caf086e8e7aa172ace79959eaa"; logging-data="2197759"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19oP2uMNZDFjjTrrJN7k2f2" User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272 Cancel-Lock: sha1:EIsjSGUwcGn7SbeJAhFwk5Hd7Fc= Bytes: 5507 On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 23:54:54 +0100, Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: >On 11/30/24 22:59, john larkin wrote: >> On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:12:23 +0100, Jeroen Belleman >> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: >> >>> On 11/30/24 18:19, john larkin wrote: >>>> On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 11:57:50 +0100, Jeroen Belleman >>>> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 11/30/24 10:34, Liz Tuddenham wrote: >>>>>> Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 11/29/24 23:03, Liz Tuddenham wrote: >>>>>>>> Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 11/29/24 21:04, Liz Tuddenham wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>>>>> It would be lovely to have 50kWTh or so of PU238 in the basement, >>>>>>>>>>> if it could be made cheaply enough. Power for a lifetime for the >>>>>>>>>>> whole house and then some. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ...but the lifetime might not be very long if any got out. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If, if. Such arguments can be used to prove anything. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I've got a diesel-powered car in the basement garage. Fully tanked, >>>>>>>>> it contains 60kg of fuel, good for 2.4GJ or so. Imagine the havoc >>>>>>>>> that could cause, if it got loose. For reference, a stick of dynamite >>>>>>>>> is about 1MJ. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've seen what happened when builders accidentally set fire to a tank of >>>>>>>> diesel far bigger than that. It burned slowly and steadily until it set >>>>>>>> fire to the roof of the house - then the house burned down. Nobody was >>>>>>>> injured or killed, the mess was easily cleaned up and a new house built >>>>>>>> on the site. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It wasn't like the sudden release of energy you would get in a fuel-air >>>>>>>> explosion (quite difficult to initiate with diesel without specialist >>>>>>>> knowledge) and there wasn't a lot of residual toxic contamination. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OK. Now back to small 238Pu fuelled units. Why would you expect >>>>>>> anything to go wrong if the Pu was contained in a hermetic canister? >>>>>> >>>>>> There's always an idiot (or a terrorist) who would challenge themself to >>>>>> open it. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yes, probably. There have been similar incidents in the past. >>>>> I'm convinced it can be made safe enough for widespread normal >>>>> use, but there will always be some fool somewhere. If we let >>>>> that stop us, no technology is safe enough. >>>>> >>>>> Jeroen Belleman >>>> >>>> A kilogram, properly distributed, would make a city uninhabitable for >>>> centuries. Imagine such an active alpha emitter in a water supply. >>> >>> There are myriad ways to create havoc, if we wanted to. I have castor >>> plants in the garden. They are very decorative. Properly distributed, >>> there is enough ricin in them to kill tens of thousands of people. >>> Nobody cares. Weaponizing noxious substances isn't so easy. >>> >>>> >>>> It would make some cool glow-in-the-dark gadgets. >>>> >>>> Critical mass is around 10 Kg. Kids could make nukes. >>>> >>> >>> 238Pu doesn't sustain a chain reaction, at least not in the quantities >>> we talk about. Nukes use 239Pu, the fissionable isotope. That's the >>> isotope that has a critical mass in the 10kg ballpark. Even then, it's >>> *very* hard to keep it together for long enough to create a sizable >>> explosion. No kid is going to pull that off, even if he could get his >>> hands on 239Pu in sufficient amounts. >>> >>> Jeroen Belleman >> >> Wiki claims >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium-238 >> >> 10 Kg critical mass. Are they wrong? >> > >I think so. > >Jeroen Belleman Googling has many references and some papers, all around 10 Kg unshielded, half that with a good neutron reflector. I suppose something that doesn't normally emit neutrons can still fission, from a cosmic ray or something. All 5 plutonium isotopes have a critical mass, at which point I assume that Something Bad happens.