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From: john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain
Date: Sat, 03 May 2025 08:12:54 -0700
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On Sat, 3 May 2025 14:24:07 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>On 2025-05-02 12:03, Martin Brown wrote:
>> On 01/05/2025 18:41, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>> On 2/05/2025 2:21 am, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 30/04/2025 7:59 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ... pumped hydro storage has the spinning
>>>>>>> turbines, but grid scale batteries have invereters, which can 
>>>>>>> reacta lot
>>>>>>> faster than any spinning turbine,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought the stabilising effect of a spinning turbine was because it
>>>>>> *didn't* react quickly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The grid frequency begins to fall so energy from the moving parts is
>>>>>> converted to electrical power which is fed into the grid to increase.
>>>>>> the frequency.  This results in a loss of stored mechanical energy 
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> causes the turbine to begin slowing down - which is detected by the
>>>>>> control system and used to feed more water/gas/steam into the 
>>>>>> turbine so
>>>>>> its speed is returned to normal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The interface between the stored mechanical energy and the electrical
>>>>>> energy demand has an almost instant response and is inherently stable
>>>>>> without needing elaborate control algorithms.
>>>>>
>>>>> But it isn't actually doing anything.
>>>>
>>>> Yes it is, basic electrical engineering theory.
>>>>
>>>> In effect it is a constant speed generator connected to variable load;
>>>> increase the load and more electrical energy immediately flows into the
>>>> load, taking mechanical energy from the inertia of the moving parts.
>>>> They then begin to slow down and the much more heavily damped mechanical
>>>> regulator feeds in more energy to them from the primary source.
>>>
>>> So it is completely passive. A big battery isn't a primary source but 
>>> it can provide enough DC current to let your grid scale inverter 
>>> generate exactly the AC output that you need.
>> 
>> There is a surprising amount of kinetic energy that can be stored in a 
>> flywheel or other rotating piece of big heavy machinery. The grid has 
>> adopted large scale solar PV and wind farms with some very flaky 
>> inverter technology whose interractions are not at all well understood.
>> 
>> One of the internal reports I was reading recently mentioned that they 
>> were thinking about funding a PhD to look into some of the complexities. 
>> It is pretty clear that the system is not well thought out.
>> 
>>> Why futz around with the rotating metal? It may entertain tourists, 
>>> but that's really all that it is good for.
>> 
>> Because it was always just there and now that it isn't the replacement 
>> inverters on many of the big installations are nowhere near good enough 
>> at simulating the required behaviour. They are too inclined to drop off 
>> and save themselves (much like nuclear plant also does). I suspect that 
>> Spain doesn't have a great deal of battery storage or pumped water.
>
>Network grade batteries, none, I believe. There are plans for water 
>pump/generators. Some of the islands do have them.
>
>It seems that solar panels and wind farms mostly have the type of 
>inverter that follow the shape of the voltage already in the grid, with 
>detection to bail out if things go nuts. There is the suspicion that 
>this was at least part of the problem.
>
>But there is another type of inverters that force the shape, ie, 
>simulate inertia.

Where do they get the energy from?