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From: Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: West Virginia creationism
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 08:33:18 +0100
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On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 16:16:59 -0400, Ron Dean
<rondean-noreply@gmail.com> wrote:

>Martin Harran wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Apr 2024 03:03:03 -0400, Ron Dean
>> <rondean-noreply@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Martin Harran wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 00:25:20 -0400, Ron Dean
>>>> <rondean-noreply@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 12:41:29 -0400, Ron Dean
>>>>>> <rondean-noreply@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Beneficial mutations are rarely observed. The defective mutations are
>>>>>>> overwhelming the beneficial mutations, as evidenced by the increasing
>>>>>>> list of genetic disorders. Perhaps, this explains the 99% extinction
>>>>>>> rate of all life forms that ever lived as observed or recorded in the
>>>>>>> fossil record, as well as the numbers of the species become extinct
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That doesn't say much for the intelligence of your designer. How long
>>>>>> would a designer with that failure rate survive in your industry?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Things change, new and better designs things just go downhill because of
>>>>> the second law. There is in companies a deliberate "fail rate" so new
>>>>> products to sell.
>>>>
>>>> Apparently planned obsolescence is yet another thing of which you have
>>>> a very poor grasp. To the extent that it exists [1], it is not a
>>>> process intended to make products go *extinct*, it is one that is
>>>> intended to encourage consumers to purchase the newest model of the
>>>> product with some apparent extra features.
>>>>
>>>> [1] ISTM, a lot less prevalent than is commonly thought. Somebody buys
>>>> a new laptop or phone and it seems really fast; two years later, it
>>>> seems to have slowed down considerably and the user blames this on a
>>>> deliberate policy of planned obsolescence by the manufacturer - they
>>>> don't take into account the amount of garbage they have collected on
>>>> the laptop or phone over the intervening two years.
>>>>    
>>>> [2] I say "apparent" because some of these claimed features are little
>>>> more than marketing hype. Increasing the resolution on a phone camera
>>>> from 12mp to 50mp will make no difference whatsoever to the vast
>>>> majority of phone users except to make them have to invest in
>>>> additional storage.
>>>>
>>>>> With the DNA coded information due to mutations (which are real) become
>>>>> increasingly less perfect when passed down to their offspring the
>>>>> defective genes are always down to the offspring never reversed; with
>>>>> the passage of time, the genome may  just become so overburden with
>>>>> defective genetics - bad mutations that failure to reproduce becomes
>>>>> inevitable. Maybe there is a loss of sexual drive, or instinct, all of
>>>>> which is expressed by genetics. As a species age, perhaps like human
>>>>> males species reach an age when sex desire dies and offsprings cannot
>>>>> happen.
>>>>
>>>> Where does your intelligent designer fit into that process?
>>>>
>>> So, you agree - I fell out of my chair I was so shocked!
>> 
>> If you are accepting planned obsolescence is yet another thing of
>> which you have a very poor grasp, then yes, we are in agreement about
>> that.
>> 
>>> If you go back
>>> in tine to one's grandparents their genome had fewer deleterious
>>> mutations than ours: going backwards generation after generation after
>>> generation, the genome of each preceding generation had ever fewer
>>> harmful mutations, By going back say to the earliest members of their
>>> kind (family) their genome must have been far closer to perfect than any
>>> decedent generations.
>> 
>> In what way do you think humans millions of years ago were more
>> "perfect" than we are?
>> 
>Millions of years ago???! I think each succeeding generation is less 
>perfect due to increasing genetic defects.

Okay, if you don't like looking at millions of years, let's just look
at some changes in recent generations. Here is life expectancy on this
side of the Atlantic for 5 consecutive generations[1]:


My grandfather b 1865: 41 years
My father b 1915: 52 years
Me b 1951: 68 years
My son b 1973: 72 years
My grandson b 2016: 81 years


Life expectancy seems like a reasonable barometer of the overall
efficiency of our bodies and each generation has had an increase in it
over the previous generation. Would you care to explain how that
equates to decreasing perfection? 

[1] Source:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1040159/life-expectancy-united-kingdom-all-time/

>> 
>>>  From then, each succeeding generation the
>>> deleterious mutations multiplied. I think possibly the proofreading and
>>> repair, which was an elegantly and highly sophisticated design set up
>>> for the best results, but over the vast spans of time even the P&R
>>> mechanisms, which initially were perfect, but with the passage of time
>>> even the P&R became less perfect due to bad mutations that slipped
>>> passed the P&R mechanisms, consequent the P&R systems were affected. The
>>> results we see today.
>> 
>> Again, I wish you would dress my actual question - where does your
>> intelligent designer fit into that process?
> >
>It seems that after the task was completed it said "It is done". and 
>left things with the capacity and ability  to take care of itself.



> It 
>seems that the designer left the scene. 

You have said elsewhere that you are now coming around to thinking
that the intelligent designer is indeed God. In that case, you
probably need to look outside your own culture [2] to find a God to
suit you because what you have been describing here and in another
post is at complete odds with the Christian God that most religious
people in the Western world generally subscribe to.

First of all, you have said that the original design is prone to
errors in successive generations; that inefficiency in design
contradicts the Christian notion of an *omnipotent* God. 

Now, you suggest that the designer has left the scene and just left
life to its own devices. That contradicts the Christian belief in a
loving and caring God who continues to be part of everyday life.


[2] I realise that the USA is particularly prone to providing a home
to many weird cults and religious groups so perhaps you might find
something there to fulfill your idea of a God who wasn't all that
clever to start with and has abandoned us to devices.



>Over time and the 2ND law 
>everything enters into downward tends, copying errors occur, things tend 
>to disintegrate and inevitably things move towards dissolution and 
>decay. I had some beautiful pine trees in my
>acreage. But a patch died, collapsed and are in a process of decay. This 
>is typical. The same will
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