Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Incorrect requirements --- Computing the mapping from the input
 to HHH(DD)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 05:48:36 +0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 253
Message-ID: <72f8c8295d3a0ff265a67b0de838516ade16c6d5.camel@gmail.com>
References: <vv97ft$3fg66$1@dont-email.me>
	 <dc76ef3215a83481dfddc40c466bb9ebc0e77341.camel@gmail.com>
	 <vvo709$3m1oc$1@dont-email.me>
	 <b503e969e23dd1b2a6201ba78c82c9ff7906eaae.camel@gmail.com>
	 <vvo9e8$3m1oc$3@dont-email.me>
	 <b9cec56c1d257e09fdf8043f02f123a4243de6e1.camel@gmail.com>
	 <vvoife$3ofmu$1@dont-email.me>
	 <09cea75db07408dc9203aca3fb74408ad3a095b4.camel@gmail.com>
	 <vvoubl$3qtsi$1@dont-email.me>
	 <bc4fb153ff914177dba706ce6e0dfb467e2126eb.camel@gmail.com>
	 <vvp04i$3r5li$3@dont-email.me>
	 <853816e160c7b3fe75c71f0728e72989d9fb2e41.camel@gmail.com>
	 <vvp1fm$3r5li$4@dont-email.me>
	 <b049926b61baa5d69d11655a8af06e537b7acd71.camel@gmail.com>
	 <vvqga9$gldn$3@dont-email.me>
	 <41e08841caf0d628beb5105bc78531a412eea440.camel@gmail.com>
	 <vvql3p$gldn$15@dont-email.me>
	 <cb999b6746607a1445c196e485a2c1124eaee8b5.camel@gmail.com>
	 <vvqnev$i5d0$3@dont-email.me>
	 <07c4f2302645a7e58957b5e5bffed80397a6ddae.camel@gmail.com>
	 <vvr0ot$k9nu$1@dont-email.me>
	 <04bd32e2a5572305de0376f9569172932ffb252f.camel@gmail.com>
	 <vvr2ov$khl4$2@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Injection-Date: Sun, 11 May 2025 23:48:37 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="1aa223d640888d616762f0efff606324";
	logging-data="692129"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19CdcjwB0Q1I56KlqxpDA7h"
User-Agent: Evolution 3.54.3 (3.54.3-1.fc41)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:NoXnudaYuCd0oB8gy9+qvXAEkA8=
In-Reply-To: <vvr2ov$khl4$2@dont-email.me>
Bytes: 13480

On Sun, 2025-05-11 at 15:53 -0500, olcott wrote:
> On 5/11/2025 3:23 PM, wij wrote:
> > On Sun, 2025-05-11 at 15:19 -0500, olcott wrote:
> > > On 5/11/2025 1:38 PM, wij wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 2025-05-11 at 12:40 -0500, olcott wrote:
> > > > > On 5/11/2025 12:21 PM, wij wrote:
> > > > > > On Sun, 2025-05-11 at 12:00 -0500, olcott wrote:
> > > > > > > On 5/11/2025 11:28 AM, wij wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Sun, 2025-05-11 at 10:38 -0500, olcott wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On 5/11/2025 9:34 AM, wij wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 2025-05-10 at 21:19 -0500, olcott wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On 5/10/2025 9:09 PM, wij wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 2025-05-10 at 20:56 -0500, olcott wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/10/2025 8:44 PM, wij wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 2025-05-10 at 20:26 -0500, olcott wrote=
:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/10/2025 8:17 PM, wij wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 2025-05-10 at 17:03 -0500, olcott w=
rote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/10/2025 4:44 PM, wij wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 2025-05-10 at 14:29 -0500, olco=
tt wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/10/2025 2:02 PM, wij wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't know the counter example in the H=
P proof, your D is not the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > case
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what HP
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > says.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure I do this is it! (as correctly encoded i=
n C)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > typedef void (*ptr)();
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > int HHH(ptr P);
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > int DD()
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > {
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 int Halt_Status =3D HHH(DD);
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 if (Halt_Status)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 HERE: goto HERE;
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 return Halt_Status;
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > }
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > int main()
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > {
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 HHH(DD);
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > }
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try to convert it to TM language to know you kn=
ow nothing.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I spent 22 years on this. I started with the Linz=
 text
> > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > When =C4=A4 is applied to =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=
=A9
> > > > > > > > > > > > > =C4=A4.q0 =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9 =E2=8A=A2* emb=
edded_H =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9 =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9 =E2=8A=A2* =C4=A4=
..qy =E2=88=9E
> > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > =C4=A4.q0 =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9 =E2=8A=A2* emb=
edded_H =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9 =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9 =E2=8A=A2* =C4=A4=
..qn
> > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > (a) =C4=A4 copies its input =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=
=A9
> > > > > > > > > > > > > (b) =C4=A4 invokes embedded_H =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=
=9F=A9 =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9
> > > > > > > > > > > > > (c) embedded_H simulates =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9=
 =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9 ...
> > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9 =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=
=9F=A9 correctly simulated by embedded_H
> > > > > > > > > > > > > cannot possibly reach its simulated final halt st=
ate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4.qn=E2=9F=A9
> > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > To refute the HP, you need to understand what i=
t exactly means in TM.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I have known this for 22 years.
> > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > A working TM.=C2=A0Build it explicitly from transit=
ion function, then explain
> > > > > > > > > > > > your derivation. You know nothing.
> > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > That would be like examining how an operating system
> > > > > > > > > > > works entirely from its machine code.
> > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > You are refuting a CS foundamental theorem (i.e. HP) of=
ficially.
> > > > > > > > > > So, yes, and actually MORE need to be done (beyond your=
 imagination).
> > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > Knowing a car or smart phone,... is far different from =
making one.
> > > > > > > > > > Knowing E=3Dmc^2 is far from knowing relativity, making=
 A-bomb (actually, making
> > > > > > > > > > A-bomb don't need to know E=3Dmc^2, people are often fo=
oled by popular saying)
> > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20
> > > > > > > > > > Every chapter of Linz's book, C text textbook has exerc=
ises, you need to those
> > > > > > > > > > exercises AT LEAST to comment CS (and computation theor=
y is more advanced topic
> > > > > > > > > > than TM). Saying so is because we know you can't do the=
 exercise and boast lots
> > > > > > > > > > about TM stuff (and pretty much anything else from just=
 reading words), even
> > > > > > > > > > about theorem.
> > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > When =C4=A4 is applied to =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9
> > > > > > > > > =C4=A4.q0 =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9 =E2=8A=A2* embedded_H =
=E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9 =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9 =E2=8A=A2* =C4=A4.qy =E2=
=88=9E
> > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 or
> > > > > > > > > =C4=A4.q0 =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9 =E2=8A=A2* embedded_H =
=E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9 =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9 =E2=8A=A2* =C4=A4.qn
> > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > (a) =C4=A4 copies its input =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9
> > > > > > > > > (b) =C4=A4 invokes embedded_H =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9 =
=E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9
> > > > > > > > > (c) embedded_H simulates =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9 =E2=9F=
=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9
> > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > All that I need to know is that I proved that
> > > > > > > > > embedded_H correctly recognizes the repeating
> > > > > > > > > pattern where its correctly simulated =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=
=9F=A9 =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4=E2=9F=A9
> > > > > > > > > cannot possibly reach its own simulated final
> > > > > > > > > halt state of =E2=9F=A8=C4=A4.qn=E2=9F=A9
> > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > https://www.liarparadox.org/Linz_Proof.pdf
> > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > We only have to actually know one detail:
> > > > > > > > > > > Every counter-example input encoded in any model
> > > > > > > > > > > of computation always specifies recursive simulation
> > > > > > > > > > > that never halts to its corresponding simulating
> > > > > > > > > > > termination analyzer.
> > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > More example here that you don't understand nearly all =
CS terms.
> > > > > > > > > >=20
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========