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From: will.dockery@gmail.com (W.Dockery)
Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: NastyGoon lifts a line
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2025 19:10:19 +0000
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On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 18:51:48 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 15:51:41 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>> On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 13:37:42 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 4:00:34 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 23:55:05 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 16:44:20 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 5:38:14 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 1:38:39 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
>
>>>> Since you refuse to reprint the poem, or provide a link to it, you can't
>>>> fault me for basing my reading on a single, out of context line.
>>>
>>> Actually, HarryLiar, we're now talking about my reading of the line -
>>> "the unread newspapers represent all the things one doesn't get to do in
>>> a day, all the unfinished business that just keeps piling up and piling
>>> up" and your response" which I called a "great metaphor" and your
>>> response: "Yes, George, that's Creeley's simile.  [Please note the
>>> difference
>>> between "simile" and "metaphor."]
>>>
>>> Using "the days" to represent "unfinished business" is not a simile.
>>> It's symbolism, or (if you'd like to quibble) metonymy.
>>
>> I believe that I first learned about similes in the 3rd Grade.  A simile
>> was defined as a comparison between two seemingly different things (A is
>> like B).
>
>> I've never had any interest in labeling the various forms, styles,
>> components, etc., of poetry.
>
>> I know that PJR and Horatio used to do
>> that quite a bit, and that you were always eager to join in -- only to
>> be ignored.  It always struck me as an exercise in pointlessness.
>> Poetry isn't about the labels one can attach to it, or the categories
>> one can pigeonhole it into.
>
> So, unless you're just trolling again, why did you bring it up here?
>
>> NancyGene's line is great regardless of whether it's a simile, metaphor,
>> or an example of symbolism.
>
>>>>>> As I previously explained to you, the newspapers in NancyGene's simile
>>>>>> represent "Yesterdays," or *Memories.*
>>>>>
>>>>> That is also not a simile. If NastyGoon had said in the poem "Yesterdays
>>>>> are like memories" that would be have been a simile, but they did not.
>>>>> In your reading, they are also using a different literary device.
>>>>
>>>> And just what literary device is that?
>>>
>>> "Symbolism" sounds good to me.
>>
>> It doesn't to me.
>
> Well, I did offer you another option: "metonymy".
>
>> A symbol is the substitution of one thing for another.  Using
>> "Yesterdays" to represent "Memories" is closer to being a symbol (it's
>> actually a metaphor) than "Yesterdays... (are) like ... read newspapers"
>> (which I still think is a simile).
>
> Now this is cute; you began by denying that Creeley's use (in my
> interpretation) of "The Days" that are piling up to "unfinished
> business" that piles up was a "metaphor" (and claimed it was a simile.
> Now you're insisting that NG's use of
> "Yesterdays" (in your interpretation) to represent "memories" *is* a
> 'metaphor. You're doing exactly the same thing you accused me of.

Either Harry Lime is confused or he's trying to confuse you and the
audience.

>>>>> So you're saying that using "Yesterdays" to mean "memories" makes sense;
>>>>> but we're discussing their simile, not that literary device.
>>>>
>>>> Are you now going to prattle on about some unnamed literary device
>>>> (which you have no intention of identifying)?
>>>
>>> I just identified it, in both poems, HarryLiar.
>>
>> How can you accuse me of lying it my previous post, when you just
>> identified it (incorrectly, IMHO) in this one?
>
> I didn't accuse you of "lying it" in your previous post. "HarryLiar" is
> just your new nickname (since you didn't like "Lime sock"). If I accuse
> you of lying, I'll call you Lying Michael (since that's the search term
> for your lies that I'm now using so those can be found.

Where's the best place to search Usenet newsgroup archives now, in your
opinion, George?

I assume the Google Groups archives are now longer up to date.

>>> Now, as for their
>>> similes, both are virtually identical: both compare days ("The days" in
>>> one, "Yesterdays" in the other) to newspapers {"unread" in one, "read"
>>> in the other).
>>
>> But the days are used to represent *different things* in each.
>>
>> Yesterdays = Memories vs Days = Increments of Time.
>
>> Are you really so dense as to be incapable of seeing past the specific
>> words to recognize their metaphorical (or, if you must, symbolic)
>> meanings?
>
> HarryLIar, judging by what you think Creeley meant by "The days", you
> seem to be the one incapable of recognizing that he was using it had a
> metaphorical meaning. (I can now call it "metaphor" even though you
> continue to insist that "not a metaphor.")

Harry Lime, as always, just makes it up as he goes along.

aka lies and misrepresentations.

>>>>>> The speaker in
>>>>>> NancyGene's poem feels as if they are unable to escape from their
>>>>>> memories, so the *read* newspapers keep piling up -- becoming more
>>>>>> oppressive with each passing day.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is not a good simile, as I said, because "read newspapers" do not
>>>>> normally stack up that way.
>>>>
>>>> Technically, newspapers don't stack up stack up any way by themselves;
>>>> they are stacked up by others.
>>>
>>> That's a stupid quibble; of course stacks of newspapers are made by
>>> people. Normally, people do not stack up the newspapers they've already
>>> read.
>>
>> It is neither stupid, nor quibbling, George. I was demonstrating how one
>> can change the meaning of a sentence by examining it out of context
>> (something which you do in practically every post).
>
>> According to your
>> sentence, the newspapers have taken on a life of their own and are
>> capable of movement (piling themselves in stacks).
>
> No, that's simply your interpretation of the sentence. It actually says
> nothing about the newspapers taking on a life of their own and moving
> anywhere.
>
>> If you don't like it, don't do it.
>
>>>> But we are discussing a line of poetry, a literary form that deals in
>>>> simile, symbol, and metaphor -- so why should it matter how you think
>>>> they stack themselves in real life?
>>>
>>> If in a poem you're trying to use a simile to show how the [d]ays "pile
>>> up" or stack up, you should try to use a vehicle that does normally
>>> "pile up" (like Creeley's "unread newspapers", not one that does not
>>> normally "stack up" (like "read newspapers"). That should be clear
>>> enough to anyone who isn't just
>>> trying to play the peabrain.
>>
>> See my comments below.  While "unread newspapers" get stacked up because
>> the subscriber hasn't had time to read them, "read newspapers" get
>> stacked up when the subscriber is suffering from clinical depression --
>> which is what NancyGene's poem is about.
>
>>>>>- once they're read, they're thrown away.
>>>>
>>>> Under normal circumstances, yes.
>>>
>>> So a reader's first thought would be that the line makes no sense.
>>>
>>>> However, when someone is suffering from clinical depression, they often
>>>> do not bother taking out their trash.  As previously noted, my Great
>>>> Aunt who suffered from depression stacked all of her read newspapers and
>>>> magazines on her front porch. The stacks reached up to the ceiling, and
>>>> covered the entire porch, barely allowing passage to her door.
>>>
>>> Are you saying that a perceptive reader would conclude that NastyGoon's
>>> speaker is suffering from "clinical depression"? Are you saying that's
>>> what you concluded on the basis of one line? I did not.
>>
>> I can't remember if I picked that up from the first line, or further
>> into the poem.  I certainly recognized it as the theme *during* my
>> initial reading.
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