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From: Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Whoops! The Atlantic Makes Trump Look EPIC In Cover Intended as a Smear
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2024 08:52:33 -0700
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On 29 Oct 2024 20:53:10 -0000, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>>On 10/28/2024 9:59 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Anyone who has done a honest study on illegal immigration in the US =
has=20
>>>> concluded that the American economy is DEPENDENT on the labor of=20
>>>> illegals.=C2=A0 Our economy would crash without them.
>
>This is likely true.  The food service and agricultural industries =
depend on
>low-wage labour and much of that has been provided by immigrants willing=
 to
>take low-wage low-skill jobs.  When immigration started to go wrong in =
the
>eighties and it became impossible for people to legally immigrate to do =
this
>work, it began to be done by illegal immigrants.
>
>Traditionally there were a lot of people from Mexico who came to the US =
to
>work the fields during harvest time, and who moved back to Mexico after
>the season was over.  That was disrupted long ago.

There is a folk song "Plane Wreck at Los Gatos", which I have on the
CD /Sing of Our Times/ by The Brothers Four (or, perhaps, /The
Brothers Four Sing of Our Times/, this sort of thing is never clear to
me) [1] which deals with the Bracero program.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracero_program]
[https://www.woodyguthrie.org/Lyrics/Plane_Wreck_At_Los_Gatos.htm]

[1] One of my favorites purchased overseas was /Words and Music by Bob
Dylan/ by The Hollies. That was the European LP title. The CD title
(presumably the original and official title) was either /The Hollies
Sing Dylan/ or /Sing Dylan/ by The Hollies. As to European titles,
/Midnight Cowboy/ appeared as /Asphalt Cowboy/, apparently matching
the change in movie title.

>People on the right hand side of the aisle will claim that citizens =
would be
>taking these jobs if there were not illegal immigrants to fill them.  =
But the
>fact that in spite of all attempts to restrict immigration, citizens =
still
>refuse to take these jobs, indicate that this is not the case.

Some time ago, I read an article where a factory, setting itself up in
one of the "flyover States" to take advantage of the large pool of
potential factory workers found, after some effort, that only /six
people/ were willing to actually do factory work. The article was
about their importing four industrial robots to fill out the
ten-station production line.

Of course, holding down a job is very hard for some people:
-- you have to get to work on time
-- you have to stay there all day
-- you have to do this five days a week (most weeks, anyway)
-- you have to show up "clean" -- that is, not drugged
-- you have to show up "sober" -- that is, not drunk
and apparently very few people were interested. Being on welfare,
drinking all day (I am being optimistic here), and watching TV was
/much/ more attractive.

In fact, IIRC, a certain city maligned by Trump/Vance /needed/ the
alleged pet-eaters precisely because they had more jobs available than
people interested in working. And, at the time the article was
written, there were still unfilled openings for any born USA citizens
to have, if they were will to get their dead butts of their couches
and go to work.

>>>Nice try, nope.  Illegal immigrants allow employers to cut the =
salaries=20
>>>of legal USA citizens.  I have seen it done many times in the=20
>>>engineering industry, especially software engineering.
>>
>>There are very few, if any, illegal immigrants in the software =
engineering
>>field.  There are a lot of legal immigrants in the software
>>engineering field, and federal law requires they be paid
>>the same as domestic engineers.
>
>This is referring to a different and just as severe immigration problem.=
  The
>US has a system called the H1-B visa which exists in order to allow =
experts
>in their field to come to America for work.  This is for people who =
really
>are experts, people who can't be replaced by American citizens because =
there
>are so few people in the world able to do their job.  When it was set up=
 it
>was a good system.
>
>However, this system has been hijacked by a number of large companies =
which
>have figured out how to game the system and which are using H1-Bs to =
bring
>in moderately-skilled technical people and hold them hostage with the =
threat
>of removing their visa.  This has caused a total disaster in the =
software
>engineering field.  These people ARE legal immigrants, but if the system=
 was
>not broken, they would not be.  What is worse, because large companies =
with
>huge legal departments are stuffing the box as soon as slots open up, =
people=20
>who really are experts, the people for whom the system was intended, are=
=20
>unable to get the visas that Congress intended for them.
>
>The immigration system is broken, and it needs people on both the left =
and
>the right to be able to sit down and fix it.  Unfortunately there is a =
small
>minority on the right which has found it is to their political advantage=
 for
>the system to remain broken and which is doing as much as possible to =
keep
>it broken.  A solution is possible and it does not involve building a =
wall.

That analysis I can agree with.
--=20
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"